Roberto Germán [00:00:01]:
Welcome to Our Classroom. In this space, we talk about education, which is inclusive of but not limited to what happens in schools. Education is taking place whenever and wherever we are willing to learn. I am your host, Roberto Germán, and Our Classroom is officially in session.
Roberto Germán [00:00:28]:
Welcome back to Our Classroom. Today I am joined by Amanda Quintero, and we're going to be talking about.
Roberto Germán [00:00:37]:
Forced exile and authoritarianism.
Roberto Germán [00:00:42]:
Interesting concept in these days because there's a lot going on in the world.
Roberto Germán [00:00:46]:
And a lot of different places. But, you know, we try to get global with this.
Roberto Germán [00:00:51]:
So we're going to talk about lessons from We Said Farewell. And Amanda is the author of We Said Farewell. She is a Venezuelan national living in exile, was in Paris, France, and now is in Spain. And when we talk about being worn down from the perpetual fear of seeing friends and family members abducted and threatened on a daily basis. She left Venezuela in 2016 to pursue graduate degree, and we're curious to hear about her experience. She's an economist, a writer, and international business strategist. She now channels her expertise into storytelling that highlights the human impact of political and economic forces. Welcome, Amanda.
Amanda Quintero Aguerrevere [00:01:43]:
Thank you, Roberto. This is a very generous introduction. So I'm very happy to be here. And it's very nice that it's a space for classroom teachers. I'm really excited about that.
Roberto Germán [00:01:58]:
And we're excited to learn from you because this is an interesting topic and we want to tap into what's happening not just in the United States, but what's happening globally. And you're bringing that global international experience. And it's important for us to talk about the things that. That sometimes we don't understand, but also things that might make us uncomfortable. And you, you certainly do that in the content that you convey through lived experiences. Not just yours, but many people around you. And so thank you for sharing your work. Let's get it right into it.
Roberto Germán [00:02:37]:
I want to talk about the human cost of authoritarianism. And in your book, We Said Farewell, it captures the deep personal and societal wounds inflicted by authoritarian rule. Based on the stories you've gathered, what are some of the most common yet overlooked ways authoritarianism impacts everyday citizens?
Amanda Quintero Aguerrevere [00:03:06]:
Well, there's so many ways, and it truly depends on the flavor of authoritarianism that you're getting. But I would, I would venture, say that the most overlooked and insidious part of living under authoritarian regime is the loss of the idea that you are the master of your destiny, that you are a free individual and that you have choices. In a. In a nutshell, I would, I would dare say that it is one of the strongest ways of learned powerlessness.
Roberto Germán [00:03:46]:
Wow.
Amanda Quintero Aguerrevere [00:03:47]:
And from that you can imagine everything that can spring, you know, like an entire population that has been devoid of a feeling that they can change their lives for the better, or that they have lost hope in that they can flourish in their own space, are basically confronted with one of two choices. Either you stay and obey, or you leave and. And find a new destiny.
Roberto Germán [00:04:18]:
Those are not great options. And, and you mentioned hopelessness. And yet you use literature as a tool for resistance and healing, which is something that I also do in my writing. So I greatly appreciate that. And you chose to write We Said Farewell as a collection of fictionalized stories based on real experiences. Why was storytelling the best way to convey these realities? And how do you hope educators and students engage with this book in their classrooms?
Amanda Quintero Aguerrevere [00:04:52]:
Well, the, the reason for the vehicle. There were several, several reasons why I came to that conclusion. First, because in the past and in my, my previous writing experience, I had worked as a research and ghost writer assistant to a non fiction book, also about Venezuela, which was very intensive in the research side. So we reviewed the 20th century and it was a very academic exercise, let's say. And one of the things that I encountered, at least for Spanish speakers, and I believe this is general trend, is that less people read nonfiction than they read fiction. Non fiction, especially for something like authoritarianism or historic critique, tends to be extremely niche. So the reason why I chose fiction was first because I thought it was going to be a vehicle that more people could reach, that is more accessible because you're listening to the story of someone and it's just like any other story, right? I mean, at the end of day, regardless of whether it's in Venezuela or in the states or in 20th century Germany, in the end, it's the story of a person and you can deeply relate through empathy. And the other reason was that when you're dealing with authoritarian regimes and you're trying to write about regimes that are still in place, it's very tricky as an author to try to, say, tell a story that is not finished.
Amanda Quintero Aguerrevere [00:06:37]:
Right. I mean, there is. You have a snapshot at what's happening right now. You never know where things are going to end in the future. You can infer. But using testimonials for me was an assertive communication way to say this is objective. There is no judgment or critique in what is happening because this person is telling you what they went through. There is no way to contest that story because that's what they lived through and they're telling you how they felt about it.
Amanda Quintero Aguerrevere [00:07:12]:
So there's also no way to, to tell them, no, that's not how you felt, you know, so for me, that was, that was the reasoning why I ended up choosing that. That form.
Roberto Germán [00:07:23]:
Yeah, that makes sense. And that's a good strategy in terms of being able to broaden your reach and you get into teaching about forced migration and political persecution. With 8 million Venezuelans displaced, migration is a core theme in your book. How can educators create classroom discussions that help students understand the complexities of forced migration beyond just statistics and headlines?
Amanda Quintero Aguerrevere [00:07:53]:
Well, I was a TA for stats back in college. So first, when, when you quote any number, I would try to relax, teach students to make a relative comparative. Right. Then 8 million people in Venezuela represents a quarter of the country. So when you think a quarter of the country, the bulk of them in working ages in their 20s and 30s, it means something entirely different because 8 million people can live, you know, like a city, like Paris has 8 million people, it's not a problem. But when you imagine an entire country and you take the entire 20s and 30s generation, like all millennials and gen zers, and you basically kick them out of the country because they didn't have possibilities to work, well, that kind of grounds the information differently. And the other part, I think. Are you based in Florida?
Roberto Germán [00:08:52]:
Yes.
Amanda Quintero Aguerrevere [00:08:53]:
I would venture to say there's a lot of migrants in Florida classrooms, but not just Venezuelans, but from a number of places. And as a migrant myself, I studied international relations. I've worked in international environments for a long time. I think one seemingly innocuous question, but can lead to very interesting conversations, is ask the students themselves about their parents and their grandparents, generations, and you'll notice that in very few occasions their parents and grandparents will be native to the place where you are. That can spring really interesting conversations. And of course, it also, it always depends on what is the narrative of that immigration wave. For example, if you talk about this with Cubans or Venezuelans, there's a lot of resentment in there. And there tends to be a reflect of not wanting to go there.
Amanda Quintero Aguerrevere [00:10:00]:
Like, it's a very sore spot. People lost dearly either because they lost property or they lost family members or they felt like they were kicked out of their own home. Whereas when you talk to other people who, for example, moved for economic reasons, it tends to be a bit more of an adventurous idea, like. But there's still a detachment from it. So opening the door to talking about immigration, I think it's, it's nuanced it depends on the kind of populations that you have and that you're speaking to. But in the end, that's. That's what my book ends up with, is that national identities, it is a very hippie way of seeing it, but national identities are constructs. And in the end, humans have roamed the earth for millions of years.
Amanda Quintero Aguerrevere [00:11:02]:
And so this idea of immigration is quite artificial. At the end of the day, borders are something that we impose through wars or agreements. But in truth, when something is happening in a piece of land where people cannot stay because there's war, because there's famine, because there's conflict, people will find ways to go somewhere else. So it's a very normal phenomenon. It happens everywhere.
Roberto Germán [00:11:30]:
Absolutely.
Amanda Quintero Aguerrevere [00:11:31]:
Trying to humanize the conversation for me is the. The key of, and the cornerstone of this debate, because it's very easy to. To demonize immigrants and use them as scapegoats for problems that are usually intersectional. You would have the same problems with any sort of population if they were poor and out of options. So trying to humanize the immigration story for me was very key in this book.
Roberto Germán [00:12:07]:
Yeah, I love that. And that's essential because oftentimes in these conversations, that part the humanization of what's happening gets lost. And as it relates to authoritarianism and the global context, your book serves as both a historical record and a warning. With rising threats to democracy worldwide, what lessons from Venezuela's crisis should educators and students take seriously in today's political climate?
Amanda Quintero Aguerrevere [00:12:37]:
Yeah, because it's very easy to also just put a number on people. I remember the person. So all of those stories are based on real people. And the person that I interviewed for the fourth story, which is a political prisoner story, told me when he finally escaped the country and he went through his asylum seeking process in Argentina, it stunned him. To what point? He became a number. He became just a way to argue and put together a file that would compile statistics against the Venezuelan regime. And very little people that he interacted with in the process of seeking asylum made him feel like he was another person that had a backstory, that had a family, that had aspirations, that had a whole life before this happened to him. And how after that he felt like it was.
Amanda Quintero Aguerrevere [00:13:37]:
He was labeled with this. And he will forever be labeled and defined by something that was out of his hands, because it was completely. At least the way it's recounted in the book, it was completely out of his control. Both the way he went into prison and out of prison, and the. The fact that he now has to live without a passport because he's an asylum seeker. So all of these things that are just one part of the story, and suddenly they become your entire story just because that is how governments treat these cases.
Roberto Germán [00:14:21]:
Wow, man. It's, It's. It's really challenging to hear some of the stories that these individuals have gone through and are going through. Right. Because as you mentioned, you know, this has been happening for a long time. Folks are experiencing this worldwide. But when you hear the stories, at least when I hear the stories, you know, it, it just, it makes me not just more aware, but more sensitive to what other people are experiencing. And certainly that should move me to action.
Roberto Germán [00:14:54]:
So. Action Steps for Educators. We want to think about fostering critical thinking about democracy. And given the politically polarized world we live in, what are some practical ways educators can encourage critical thinking and civic engagement in their classrooms without fear of controversy or censorship?
Amanda Quintero Aguerrevere [00:15:19]:
That's a tightrope. I guess it depends where you are in the world. If, if you're sitting in Europe, for example, the, the history of Europe has made it so that civics in history is a big part of the curriculum because basically the entire education system was built, rebuilt after World War II so that it would. So. So that something like that wouldn't happen again. However, if you're, if you're working in other places, it also depends on the states because, as you know, like in the states, there's, There's a complicated situation with book banning and whatnot. But I think in general, when you're talking about authoritarian regimes and also depends on, on the age groups, is. It's all about making or, or passing on the, the core values and, and the core differences of what a democracy is versus the previous step, which is monarchy.
Amanda Quintero Aguerrevere [00:16:35]:
I mean, democracy as we know it today. The, the modern democracy that was created during the Enlightenment period as we know it, is a reaction to monarchy. So for me, it's very useful as, As a student of political science to see what was there before, especially in France. I have a bias for that for, because I'm French, but also because I think it is the turning point for modern democracy. It is. People got so upset with the way things were going that they cut the head of the king. And once they cut the head of the king, they decided that no one would ever hold that much power ever again. And the way that they did that was they put together constitutions.
Amanda Quintero Aguerrevere [00:17:22]:
And this is what the founding fathers of the United States and everywhere around did. They put together a constitution that would make sure that power was divided in pieces. And so there were tasks for this, there were tasks for that. They are checks and balances that help that no one ever concentrates that amount of power that can rule over an entire population without being unchecked. And I think at the core, anyone who wants to promote civics, anti authoritarianism or promotion of democracy has to go through this very essential conversation. It's not about think this op ed said or that news anchor thinks about this and that, or what that influencer believes democracy is, but like really going through the core basics of what democracy is. And it is expressed in, in very different systems around the world. Not everyone has a president, not everyone has a prime minister, not everyone has a congress, but everyone has come up with some sort of solution to this problem of not having a single person rule over everyone.
Amanda Quintero Aguerrevere [00:18:40]:
And authoritarians usually don't like that division of power. Authoritarians, like, at least in the case of Venezuela, they operate under a mafia system of values. So they dismantled the state, they dismantled the constitution, they rearranged laws and jurisprudence to create conditions so that the president has all the power and they can appoint this person or that person or make this decision. And in the end what that does is that they effectively work as a king. And in Venezuela, that effectively brought back a feudal state. Honestly, I mean it's, it is like that they are operating with local militias who are armed outside of the army and outside of the police forces. And so they are just linked to the government by loyalty, which is exactly how it happened in the feudal states. And it also means that they get to do the, the whatever laws they want in their own territory.
Amanda Quintero Aguerrevere [00:20:00]:
They get to charge whatever taxes they want in their own territory. So by deconstructing what you think democracy is back into their principles and comparing it to something previous like the feudal system, I think there's a lot of power in there.
Roberto Germán [00:20:16]:
Wow. Yeah, it sounds scary because it's sounding like a trend. Wow, thank you for breaking that down. You know, it really encourages us as educators to dig deeply into that right, to get familiar with all of our documentation and how we set our, you know, how we express that our systems are supposed to function and cross examine that with what's happening. You know, are they functioning the way they're supposed to function? Are we abiding by the laws? Are we.
Amanda Quintero Aguerrevere [00:20:51]:
And one thing that is very, very useful for teaching this kind of thing is put them play, put them to play court or put them to like to, to do a game where one of them has more power than the other and it will immediately Come into, into evidence what it is that you do when you have too much power. That's, it's, it always comes to the light.
Roberto Germán [00:21:15]:
Sounds like there'll be anarchy in the classroom or monarchy.
Amanda Quintero Aguerrevere [00:21:20]:
One of the two.
Roberto Germán [00:21:21]:
Oh man. Wow. So what, what is a message of encouragement that you want to offer our audience?
Amanda Quintero Aguerrevere [00:21:31]:
A message of encouragement would be, I think as educators, the power of getting your students to believe that their opinions are not necessarily true, but that matter. That their opinions matter, that no one holds the truth, but that they can always challenge the status quo literature. That is something invaluable. And I think that is the cornerstone of independent thinking. And as long as you can educate independent thinkers, you will have the right conditions to preserve democracy. Because democracy can only flourish when people can think for themselves and tell which, which kind of leadership is trying to do something that is right for you and which kind of leadership is just trying to do a self serving administration.
Roberto Germán [00:22:38]:
So for those that want to learn more about you, learn more about your work, who want to connect with you, perhaps they want to explore your book we said Farewell. Where can they learn more?
Amanda Quintero Aguerrevere [00:22:50]:
Thank you for that question. So the book is a self publication on Amazon. So you find it on Amazon by the title. It's available in Spanish and English. In Spanish is Para no volver. And in English is We said Farewell, both under my name, Amanda Quintero Aguerrevere. And I also have a website and social media which are in French. I don't know why I chose that back when I did.
Amanda Quintero Aguerrevere [00:23:18]:
In English it's. You would pronounce it less l e s mots m o t s the d e Amanda, that's.com or as a handle.
Roberto Germán [00:23:34]:
And how would you say that in French? De Amanda.
Amanda Quintero Aguerrevere [00:23:41]:
What else?
Roberto Germán [00:23:42]:
All right, here we go.
Roberto Germán [00:23:43]:
So for our French listeners, there you go.
Roberto Germán [00:23:46]:
All right, for our American listeners, go get it now. Go check it out. Go connect with Amanda. And certainly for our Spanish speaking listeners, support Amanda and all the work that she's doing. Let's learn more, let's grow more and let's be moved to action. Amanda, thank you for your time.
Amanda Quintero Aguerrevere [00:24:05]:
Thank you.
Roberto Germán [00:24:07]:
As always, your engagement in Our Classroom is greatly appreciated. Be sure to subscribe, rate the show and write a review. Finally, for resources to help you understand the intersection of race, bias, education and society, go to multiculturalclassroom.com Peace and love from your host Roberto Germán.
Amanda Quintero Aguerrevere [00:24:32]:
It.
