Roberto Germán [00:00:01]:
Welcome to Our Classroom. In this space, we talk about education, which is inclusive of but not limited to what happens in schools. Education is taking place whenever and wherever we are willing to learn. I am your host, Roberto Germán, and Our Classroom is officially in session. Welcome back to Our Classroom. Today I am joined by Jacquelynne Boivin, Dr. Jacquelynne Boivin, and Dr. Kevin McGowan.
Roberto Germán [00:00:40]:
We're going to be talking about unpacking privilege, teaching race and equity in predominantly white classrooms. Ha. Let that settle people. Oh, that just made some folks uncomfortable in these times, in these times in which we're living in. But we're gonna talk the talk. We're gonna walk the walk with these folks. And so Dr. Boivin's a former elementary school teacher, teaches elementary and early childhood education at Bridgewater State University in Bridgewater, Massachusetts.
Roberto Germán [00:01:15]:
And y'all know I am from Massachusetts, so shout out to all my people in Massachusetts to conduct seminars on tackling the issue of racism and guides former teachers on methods for the topic of racism in their curriculum. Dr. Kevin McGowan is an associate professor of elementary and early childhood education at Bridgewater State University. Kevin is the coordinator for the African American Studies Program. He also is the academic director for BSU's Martin Richard Institute for Social justice, and they are the authors of Unpacking Privilege in the elementary Classroom, A Guide to Race and Inequity for White Teachers. Welcome. Thank you for being here.
Dr. Jacquelynne Boivin [00:02:06]:
Thank you for having us.
Dr. Kevin McGowan [00:02:08]:
Yep. Good to be here.
Roberto Germán [00:02:10]:
My pleasure. My pleasure. So let's jump right into it. Let's start by talking about the reality of racial segregation in schools. In your book, you state white elementary teachers teaching in predominantly white schools can have very successful careers without addressing racism. Why do you think this really persists? And what are the risks of ignoring conversations about race in these classrooms?
Dr. Jacquelynne Boivin [00:02:43]:
This is a great opening question, Roberto, because I think it really gets us to be thinking about the current status in education in which there is a lot of fear surrounding these conversations. And they are so integral that I think a lot of people get stymied from having these conversations because they're afraid of making mistakes, but that's inherently part of it. So in our nation, we have a system that really prioritizes traditional academics that are deemed, quote, unquote, hard skills over the value of what it means to authentically interact with other people, especially people who are different than ourselves. And there are many white teachers who have taught in predominantly white schools for years and years and never had to directly address race in their teaching and have never been asked to do so. As an expectation for their teaching performance. So oftentimes, white teachers are not thought, are not thinking about themselves as having a race because whiteness is so normalized in society. And with this mindset, there's a lack of understanding that race is even present in that learning environment, especially if the students are predominantly white. So it doesn't seem necessary to even discuss the social construct of race.
Dr. Jacquelynne Boivin [00:04:09]:
However, we know that ignoring conversations about race is extremely detrimental to white folks included. Ignoring that race exists and that there is even systemic racism present in our American society. It's really troubling, and it's problematic because that then spurs white teachers, white children, to grow up and be unaware and ignorant of systemic racism and seeing their whiteness as so normalized and their privileges and power so normalized that they have no sense as to how to contribute to the deconstruction of these systems and contribute to any sort of societal resistance. So ignoring race in the elementary classroom really contributes toward this colorblindness. This mindset that we know discounts and discredits the lived experiences of people of color when a white person really has that mindset. Moving forward.
Roberto Germán [00:05:13]:
Kevin, but some people say, hey, just teach the content. You shouldn't be talking about race. Just teach the content. What do we say to that?
Dr. Kevin McGowan [00:05:28]:
Well, we connect it to the lived experiences of everyday folks. In the state of Massachusetts, we have standards that explicitly state that we should be talking about these kinds of issues in an effort to make all children and families feel welcome and just add a bit more to what Jackie said about systemic racism and our white brothers and sisters, their lack of wanting to engage in the conversation. Because when you start peeling back the layers and thinking about, well, well, why are we in a segregated school in a segregated neighborhood, then you have to start talking about redlining and purposely keeping folks of color out of your community. And that conversation is going to make folks uncomfortable. And one point, one of the points in the book is being comfortable with being uncomfortable. So stating facts and historical perspectives as a way to understand why we're even in segregated schools and looking at the resources that these segregated schools have that children who attend schools of color may not necessarily have. So of course there's major pushback. And one of the anecdotes to that is to talk about it and highlight the importance of everyone being included in this conversation.
Dr. Kevin McGowan [00:07:13]:
Even if you are a white teacher standing in front of 246 year olds who are white, it's still important to have the conversation. And there are ways to go about it without, without frightening children or without them feeling badly about themselves, because I know that's one reason. Oh, well, my child is going to feel bad about being white. And. No, the way the conversation happens is we highlight diversity. It's okay for us to be different and okay for us to celebrate what we have in common and just kind of.
Dr. Jacquelynne Boivin [00:07:55]:
Oh, sorry.
Roberto Germán [00:07:56]:
No, go ahead, Jackie.
Dr. Jacquelynne Boivin [00:07:58]:
Building off of that idea of what do we do when we're challenged as educators? Like, you're. You're being paid. You get my tax dollars to be teaching my kid math, science, reading, writing. What are you doing having conversations about race? We, as educators know.
Roberto Germán [00:08:16]:
Why are you indoctrinating my children?
Dr. Jacquelynne Boivin [00:08:20]:
Yeah, right. That is so far from what is happening here. And we all know, as educators that we do so much more than just teach hard academics to our children. They're living, breathing human beings. They are future citizens. So there is. There's this entire canon of literature about social, emotional, learning and civic dispositions that are integral to how we teach elementary school. School.
Dr. Jacquelynne Boivin [00:08:52]:
We can't teach like we're robots or they're robots. Right. We have to humanize what it means to be an American as part of our American education system. And part of that is to understand the systems that are in place. And some of it's some ugly truths. But as Dr. McGowan had mentioned, none of this is rooted in trying to get white kids to feel guilty, bad, remorseful, or not like themselves due to their race. An important part of this entire process is to think about identity formation, which is embedded in many facets of the hard curriculum that we teach.
Dr. Jacquelynne Boivin [00:09:31]:
Right. Like, if we're teaching ela, right, and we're having kids read narratives and connect with the character in a story, we know that we need to understand their world and what's influencing them. We need our students to understand what's in their world and what's influencing them.
Roberto Germán [00:09:50]:
Yeah, absolutely. And you're. You're touching upon a number of different things. One thing that comes to mind is I wonder if the plan is ultimately to replace a lot of our educators with robots. Right. To. To replace the human interaction with AI interaction. Right.
Roberto Germán [00:10:10]:
With. With. With computers and all these machine learning models and whatnot, and just the way that things are happening to dismantle our schools. It brings about a great deal of curiosity. Right. Even as we consider some of the words that you've already used in this conversation, words such as systemic and included, these are becoming cuss words in our country, in our society.
Roberto Germán [00:10:41]:
It's.
Roberto Germán [00:10:41]:
It's crazy. But, you know, over here, we're doubling down. We, we're doubling down on what we teach. We're doubling down on what we believe, which is why we, we welcome the conversation. And so let, let's keep pushing the boundaries here. Let's, let's go into breaking out of the la la land of whiteness, if you will. You reflect on growing up in the la la land of whiteness and realizing later how your experience was shaped by systemic privilege. What advice do you have for educators who are beginning to recognize their own privilege and want to take meaningful steps towards.
Roberto Germán [00:11:18]:
There's another gust word in our society, anti racist teaching.
Dr. Jacquelynne Boivin [00:11:25]:
I don't know, Roberto. I think you need the bleep button nowadays on these kinds of terms on podcasts. Right? And I totally echo what you're saying. Wild times right now with this rhetoric being so demonized. So first off, if anyone is listening to this podcast and can't see me visually, I am a white woman. So I really like to make clear that I state my positionality really openly, that I have a limited understanding of racism because I have been so privileged. And that's really what inspired this chapter in which I call my upbringing this la la land of whiteness. I'm a white woman who grew up in a predominantly white town and I went to predominantly white public schools.
Dr. Jacquelynne Boivin [00:12:08]:
So I call it this because it was kind of like a utopia of being able to ignore these larger societal issues of what is systemic racism. Wait, there's racial segregation, as in this bubble where no one talked about it because no one was affected by it in this town. So why should we care? Why should we have these conversations at all? So I found that once I really started to become aware of it because I started to leave my small town and slowly cultivated this lens of noticing systemic racism and the fact that we are racially segregated as a society through residents in schools, it was something that I really couldn't unsee. And I talk to my current college students a lot about that is once you kind of develop this lens, some of them are like, it's a superpower I never knew I needed, but now I don't know if I want it because I'm just so upset with all I'm noticing. But, you know, we talk about it as a superpower to be able to notice, to call in people, to call out things that are injustices in our society. So once I started to kind of have that lens and I couldn't unsee what I was seeing, it really made me think that for any educators out there who are on Their journey of starting to unpack what it means to have privilege and the role of their whiteness in society. I would first recommend really being kind to yourself. Because on this journey, a lot of guilt and remorse is embedded in it.
Dr. Jacquelynne Boivin [00:13:44]:
And that's normal. That's like a normal part of the process, right? Because you didn't realize how you were benefiting from the society, and now you are, and you realize how unfair that was. So that's really part of it. I think that the journey of addressing your biases is messy. It involves consistent mistake making. As Dr. McGowan said, it's going to feel really uncomfortable. But you got to just understand that and don't let that stop you.
Dr. Jacquelynne Boivin [00:14:09]:
And there's no way to authentically be on the journey and do it perfectly. If you feel like you're doing it perfectly and you feel like you're never messing up, I would really push you to think about, are you really doing enough? Are you trying hard enough in this process? Because you should be messing up. It's part of it. To say I've never messed up would be an absolute lie. But I'm lucky that I have people who surround me, who call me in and have conversations in which I feel nurtured to keep learning, but also help me address things that maybe I said something or did something, and I'm cultivated in a way so that I can keep moving forward without getting defensive, shutting down and saying, this isn't for me. Because that's kind of human nature. If we feel like we're doing something wrong or someone's calling us a bad person, we don't want anything to do with it. A lot of it comes down to ego.
Dr. Jacquelynne Boivin [00:15:04]:
But if you're going to do this work, you gotta kind of let the ego go at a certain point. So I'd say also when it comes to, like, messing up, we have to remember that that is what spurs growth. And if you ever feel like your growth has plateaued or you feel like you've kind of reached that point of not having biases anymore, that's a stopping point to reflect and understand that there's more learning to be done. Because this sounds super cliche, but the journey never ends. You're never going to get a certificate that says, congratulations, you're no longer biased, you no longer have racism. Like, it's. There's no finish line to it. And I think that intimidates a lot of people.
Dr. Jacquelynne Boivin [00:15:49]:
But I kind of view that as motivation to always be searching because there's always going to be something for me to keep learning because there are so many aspects of identity that don't align with my identity and that allows me to keep learning and keep growing. So, like keeping a journal, speaking with others who are on this journey are some ways that are really helpful. And if anyone picks up the book, you'll find that each chapter ends with reflective questions for the reader to consider and those lead to different responses over time. So if you're reading the book, go back after a month, after six months, after a year, see how your answers change and develop over time. That might be a good way to track your progress in terms of where could you maybe pay a little bit more attention to have a sense of growth over time? I'd also say that part of addressing your own privilege should be a communal effort. Find your people. Dr. McGowan is one of my people who constantly inspires me, pushes me, supports me.
Dr. Jacquelynne Boivin [00:17:01]:
And we have a group of faculty friends and we have like a group chat that we are constantly reflecting on what's happening in the world. Then find your people. And that really boils down to finding those who align with you morally and ethically during these times.
Roberto Germán [00:17:18]:
Yeah. And I'm wondering about finding your people, Dr. McGowan, how it is that you support folks in taking tangible steps for integrating race conversations in the curriculum. Since the book emphasizes that discussions on race should not be confined to social studies, but integrated into all subjects, subjects including ela, math and science. Can you share practical examples of how teachers can embed anti racist perspectives across different subjects without feeling forced or performative.
Dr. Kevin McGowan [00:17:52]:
First?
Dr. Kevin McGowan [00:17:53]:
It is going to be like a paradigm shift and how you think about this. And in early childhood and elementary education we are always talking about the integrated unit and how everything is really connected to everything else. So we teach discrete subjects. But in my view it's not possible to teach them without getting into other areas of the curriculum. For example, if you are engaged in a science lesson and you want to talk about blood circulatory system and how that works, then that's an opportunity for us to talk about Dr. Charles Richard drew and the work he did to develop safety precautions which store in our blood African American surgeon and physician. So you can quickly drop that in and then, well, we're going to read a book about Dr. Charles Richard Drew.
Dr. Kevin McGowan [00:18:59]:
Well, there's math involved and thinking about, well, how many liters of blood do we have in our body and how does that change over time. So there are practical ways to do that and it requires rolling up your sleeves and doing the work to Intentionally think about how it's all integrated. And that's part of what Dr. Boivin said about finding your people, because your people help you to stretch beyond what you would consider as an individual. So you have your individual action and then you connect it to that collective action relative to your people and how they are moving that integrated anti racist conversation forward.
Roberto Germán [00:19:53]:
Absolutely, Absolutely. So important. And you offer some simple yet effective, tangible steps that folks could take in their approach to the curriculum, which I think it's important because that's often a question that comes up. And I don't know, sometimes it comes up because there's some resistance. Even folks don't want to acknowledge that sometimes it comes up because folks really don't know, nor have they necessarily taken the necessary time to do the research or search through resources that are readily available to them. But for such reason, it's important for us to have this type of dialogue and to offer resources such as your book, Unpacking Privilege, Teaching Race and Equity in Predominantly White Classrooms. And so we got into this a little bit. But when it comes to navigating pushback from parents in school communities, in the book it mentions that discussing race in predominantly white schools can stir a pot that the majority do not want stirred.
Roberto Germán [00:21:00]:
What other strategies do you recommend for educators facing resistance from parents, administrators, or colleagues when trying to engage students in critical conversations about race?
Dr. Jacquelynne Boivin [00:21:15]:
I can share a little bit about that and then I'll hand it over to you, Dr. McGowan, because I know that you probably have really valuable insights regarding this as well. I love this concept of stirring the pot that no one wants to be stirred right now during these trying political times. It can be a feeling that we all have that the world's against us in trying to do racial equity work, especially in the classroom. There are policies that are getting put in place more in some places than in others that are making this challenging. And I think that a lot of it right now boils down to the uses of usage of language and how we can use different terminology that strays from this traditional DEI rhetoric that's being so demonized that we feel like our game of trying to have DEI in classrooms is under attack. So. So we need to kind of change the game, right? We need to think about ways that we can creatively get around these reforms so that we feel like there are more avenues to pursue.
Dr. Jacquelynne Boivin [00:22:27]:
So I always return back to the notion that students are going to talk about race and racism and biases on their own. In many ways, if it's not in front of you in the classroom. It's happening under the slide, on the playground, the back of the school bus, on the way to and from. Like it's happening. It's just, do you want this happening unsupervised and unmoderated or in a structured, safe space? So even if all of your students are white, they're still going to be picking up what's happening on the news. They hear it, they, you know, parents have it on, they're internalizing and what they're hearing. And if they don't have a structured space to be thinking about what's happening, making sense of it, but also how that can impact them personally and what their role is in it, they're going to make up their own narrative and try to make sense of it without any structure, which can be really harmful. So one thing that I think is really important to consider with parents is that as an educator, it's important to have students be given a space to have these discussions and support and structure rather than in these places where we know it's happening, but without anyone helping guide it.
Dr. Jacquelynne Boivin [00:23:47]:
And I truly want white students to start their journeys and thinking about the role of race earlier on in their lives so that these white students don't grow up like Dr. Boivin, needing to unlearn a whole lot of stuff and trying to kind of dismantle the racism that was embedded in me. Because no one had those structured conversations with me in.
Dr. Kevin McGowan [00:24:12]:
Just to add to what Dr. Boivin said about terminology, some of it is connected to unpacking some of what these terms mean and fighting back against some of the mis and disinformation, especially around the construct of critical race theory. So we have parents at school committee meetings and school board meetings stating that they do not want their seven year old critical race theory in their second grade classroom. So we can rest assured that no, no second grade teacher across the country is teaching critical race there. And if they are, I want to interview, I want to interview that teacher and have a conversation with that teacher. Most of us did not come in contact with that complex theory until we were in graduate school having discussions about critical race theory. So first of all, let's talk to them about what critical race theory really is. Now if your issue is you don't want me to read Hair love to your 7 year old white student, then you need to really state that so you can't say, oh, put this on the banned book list because it's teaching my child critical race theory.
Dr. Kevin McGowan [00:25:37]:
So you need to bring that book into me and we're going to read it together. And then I want you to identify specifically why I can't read this book to my predominantly white first grade class. And I think that would help shut down some of it because then you're going to have to specifically say, I don't want my white child to read a book with black characters in it. So you will just need to state that, go on record and state that.
Roberto Germán [00:26:07]:
That's right.
Dr. Kevin McGowan [00:26:08]:
So a lot of, a lot of conversations around accurately defining these terms. And as Dr. Boivin said, you're still teaching it because our standards say we need to teach it.
Roberto Germán [00:26:27]:
Yeah, we need folks to say what they mean and be honest about that and then let's have a conversation. But in the meantime, we need to build a support system for anti racist teaching. And the book stresses the importance of school community buy in to sustain anti racist efforts. What are some key actions school leaders and educators can take to create a culture where conversations about privilege and racial justice are embraced rather than avoided?
Dr. Jacquelynne Boivin [00:27:04]:
I'm really happy to think critically about school community buy in because this, this is my jam. This is my doctoral dissertation was all about what can a principal do to support white teachers of white students and bringing this to the classroom. Because that's what I was living and breathing. And my doctoral work was to investigate all across the state of Massachusetts, hey principals, like what are you doing? What could you be doing more of? What do your teachers need in this specific context? And in short, what I really found out was that if principals are on their own journeys of addressing their biases, then there are a heck of a lot better of a resource to their teachers because they're modeling, they're coming up with their own speed bumps in the process and they then have teachers who are on the journey and able to ask questions. So it really becomes part of the identity of the school. So like, look at the school mission. Is it addressing diversity, equity, inclusion? All of what we're saying are current cuss words. Is that in the school mission? Are our actions going to posit the reality of that coming into fruition? Also, when it comes to the school culture, I want to just remind teachers that yOur Classroom culture is your own domain.
Dr. Jacquelynne Boivin [00:28:29]:
You have control for the most part of what's happening in there. But when it aligns with the school culture at large that the principal and the school district is helping establish, it is so much easier to be bringing this work into yOur Classroom because it aligns with the morals and ethics of the school and the district. So when there's a rub there. It's inherently more challenging when you feel like you're a rogue teacher doing something that's totally different. So we need administrators to step up. We need administration to say, this is part of who we are. Because I will say it once, I will say it again. It is morals and ethics.
Dr. Jacquelynne Boivin [00:29:10]:
And if you are saying that you don't value diversity, equity, inclusion, that says a lot about what you value as a human, that you truly are okay with not everyone getting what they need to be successful. And that is a larger conversation, of course. But I'm saying that teachers will benefit from administration who step up and establish that this is who we are as a school.
Roberto Germán [00:29:37]:
Yeah, that's good. That's good. And as a former administrator, I'll echo that. And certainly as I was doing my own work and understanding my privilege, understanding my blind spots, my biases, it definitely made me sensitive to those that my teachers are struggling with and how it is that my experience and my journey can inform their journey and how it is that we can journey together. Right. So we're thinking about the. The type of culture that we're creating and one that permits room for folks to stumble as long as they're willing to get back up and. And walk and move forward.
Roberto Germán [00:30:27]:
Together. Together. Because it is a journey, but it's a collective journey. Right? We have our individual journey, but then as part of the community, there's a collective journey that we should be on, and our mission, our vision, should be the mirror. Right. That we're holding up to say, like, are our actions aligning with who we say we aspire to be and what it is that we aim to do? As we conclude here, for those that are listening, what is your message of encouragement?
Dr. Jacquelynne Boivin [00:31:06]:
Oh, we need that right now. I feel like we really do. And we're in a place as a nation where anyone who prioritizes racial equity work feels downtrodden, to say the least, and maybe even like, their efforts aren't producing anything. You're not moving forward. And I always equate this to right now. Sometimes I feel like I'm running on a treadmill when I thought I was taking a run outside and I was moving forward, but I'm just working just as hard but not going anywhere. That's kind of how it feels. And I feel like that's normal to feel that way with all that's going on.
Dr. Jacquelynne Boivin [00:31:42]:
But my largest word of encouragement is keep running, even if it's on that treadmill, because if we keep running, it ensures that we stay ready when opportunities come in which we're able to work toward larger educational equity, and the opportunities are going to start to pop up once the dust settles from all of these reforms, mandates and chaos that's been coming out of Washington. So if we stay ready, we don't need to get ready. So if we don't need to get ready in the future, it means that all this is going to be temporary. And if we stay dedicated now, we ensure that it will be temporary. But if we just say, well, guess we got to let it go for now, we're not going to be as prepared for when that dust settles and opportunities start to come up and we have a game plan and strategy because then we have to try to do some relearning again, try to get people together again. No, if we stay ready, we don't need to get ready. And that ensures this will all be temporary.
Roberto Germán [00:32:47]:
Indeed. Indeed.
Dr. Kevin McGowan [00:32:50]:
And as Dr. Boivin was talking, it made me think about history. And I identify as an African American man and I'm a descendant of enslaved folks. So I was born and raised in Houston, Texas, and most of my extended family are still there. And we heard the oral stories growing up, connecting our family back to enslavement. Even my last name, McGowan, it belonged to the white Irish family who owned my family. So I take solace in helping people think back, think back about their own personal history in this country and what our folks did over this 400 year history to ensure that these kind of conversations that we're having here today can even happen. And also to think of this work as not linear.
Dr. Kevin McGowan [00:33:56]:
As Dr. Boivin mentioned earlier, it's iterative and messy and it's like a cha cha dance. So you're going to take two steps forward and three back, but you're still taking some steps, still taking some steps forward. And to also realize that we're not going to ever become competent in another person's racial experience. So I like to borrow a term from our social work colleagues, cultural humility. So I'm learning about your racial identity as I share about mine. Like one, connect an individual to individual.
Roberto Germán [00:34:44]:
That's good. That's good. Thank you for sharing that. I did not have the cha cha on my bingo card for today, I'm not gonna lie. But now, now you got me thinking I need to practice when I'm done and grow my cultural humility while I do the cha cha. Hey, folks, again, Dr. Jacquelynne Boivin and Dr. Kevin McGowan are the authors of Unpacking Privilege, Teaching Race and equity in predominantly White classrooms.
Roberto Germán [00:35:14]:
If you are interested in learning more, if you want to get a copy of the book, if you want to connect with the work that they are doing, where can they follow you?
Dr. Jacquelynne Boivin [00:35:26]:
I'm on LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram, so feel free to look me up.
Dr. Kevin McGowan [00:35:33]:
Yep. And I'm also on LinkedIn and Instagram.
Roberto Germán [00:35:38]:
And I believe you also have a group that educators could join, is that correct? The Facebook group?
Dr. Jacquelynne Boivin [00:35:45]:
Yep. On Facebook it's called White Teacher White Students. Feel free to join the conversation with the readership and this is welcome to anyone that wants to be discussing racial equity in the elementary classroom.
Roberto Germán [00:35:57]:
There you have it, folks. You can't say that you do not have resources. You can't say there's not direction if you need support if you're teaching in a predominantly white classroom, elementary classroom. Here we have individuals who have been doing the work themselves, who've been on their own journey, but also part of a collective journey supporting many others. And they want to support you. Thank you for being here with us today. Thank you for the insight that you've provided and grateful for the work that you're doing because it's so necessary during these times. Just want to encourage you to keep pushing forward.
Roberto Germán [00:36:33]:
Even if it feels like you're on a treadmill, keep pushing forward.
Dr. Jacquelynne Boivin [00:36:37]:
Thank you.
Roberto Germán [00:36:39]:
As always, your engagement in Our Classroom is greatly appreciated. Be sure to subscribe, rate the show and write a review. Finally, for resources to help you understand the intersection of race, bias, education and society, go to multiculturalclassroom.com Peace and love from your host, Roberto Germán.
