ï»żRoberto GermĂĄn [00:00:01]:
Welcome to Our Classroom. In this space, we talk about education, which is inclusive of, but not limited to, what happens in schools. Education is taking place whenever and wherever we are willing to learn. I am your host, Roberto GermĂĄn, and Our Classroom is officially in session. Anti-Reading Revolution by Dr. Sonia Cherry-Paul provides K-8 educators with a comprehensive framework for anti-racist teaching. Learn how to create joy, community, and justice in your classroom through transformative reading experiences. Chapters in this book offer personal and insightful anecdotes, provide a clear and actionable guide for K-8 literacy educators, encourage reflection, and guide educators towards selecting and teaching with books that center the lived experiences of BIPOC students in an anti-racist classroom.
Roberto GermĂĄn [00:01:02]:
Reading helps us to dream, experience joy, engage in collective struggle, liberate our minds, and love. Letâs move forward to realize our vision of an anti-racist reading classroom rooted in love and liberation. Welcome back to Our Classroom.
Roberto GermĂĄn [00:01:20]:
Today we are joined by Dr. Maggie.
Roberto GermĂĄn [00:01:24]:
Broderick, an Associate Professor and Dissertation Chair in the Department of Teacher Education at National University. With over 20 years of experience in education, higher ed, and K-12 settings, she is a leader in curriculum development and is passionate about fostering Social Emotional Learning (SEL) in students, which is what we are going to be talking about today. SEL is one of those hot topics.
Roberto GermĂĄn [00:01:52]:
In education, and certainly, at least from our perspective, it is needed. It is needed. We need strategies; we need to know how to best implement them. We need to know how an effective SEL approach can help us to better meet the needs of our students. So, Dr. Broderick, thank you for being here today.
Dr. Maggie Broderick [00:02:15]:
Thanks so much, Roberto. Itâs wonderful to see what youâre doing with the podcast, and Iâm delighted to join you today.
Roberto GermĂĄn [00:02:22]:
Well, letâs talk a little bit aboutâŠ
Roberto GermĂĄn [00:02:26]:
The context of SEL in todayâs educational landscape. I think thatâs a good starting point for us. How has the understanding and implementation of SEL evolved in K-12 schools over the past decade?
Dr. Maggie Broderick [00:02:43]:
Oh yeah, thank you. Thatâs a great question. Like I mentioned earlier, I thought it was great to see the episodes you have in your podcast, and youâre bringing up some of the changing times weâre living through these days, which, if you look at it from an outside point of view, you go like, âWow, this is a lotâtumultuous times, a lot of things happening with our students, their families, our teachers, and communities.â And so, I was looking at, for example, how youâre focusing on things that really tie right into human well-being and emotional support, which is what weâre talking about with SEL today. I saw you mentioning something in an episode about teacher burnout and educator mental health in another episode, and Iâll tell you, SEL figures in exactly with that. Because I think the most important thing I can say today is that itâs not just for our students. Itâs absolutely for our students, but itâs also for our teachers and for just every human.
Dr. Maggie Broderick [00:03:37]:
Every single human. Yeah. So I can tell you a little bit about that. You asked about sort of the trajectory there. I guess itâs becoming kind of a buzzword, and you alluded to that, but it goes so much deeper, right. Some people, I guess since COVID, since the pandemic, kind of said, âOh, thatâs a solution.â Like we do in teaching.
Dr. Maggie Broderick [00:03:56]:
Weâre like, âOh, there we go. Thereâs an approach we take because of XYZ, so we do ABC.â And so I can see why itâs becoming a buzzword and youâre hearing more about it, but itâs not really a new idea at all. There are some organizations that have framed the idea of SEL over, really, the last few decadesâlike before the more recent, tumultuous times weâre living in, right. And they have really kind of framed it in a way where we can make sense of it and pinpoint it.
Dr. Maggie Broderick [00:04:27]:
But really, you know, going way backâand Iâve been around a whileâitâs really what we might have talked about 20, 30 years ago as sort of âsoft skills.â So, really working to understand yourself as a human being, understanding other peopleâwhether itâs, you know, if youâre a kid, understanding your teacher or your peers or your parents and other thingsâor, you know, also the things that go along with that. So skills like communication and empathyâso importantâself-regulation, reflection, and personal growth. And so, like I said, thereâs an organization called CASEL, C-A-S-E-L.
Dr. Maggie Broderick [00:05:02]:
You know, the one familiar with CASEL. Yeah, they are great. So hopefully your listeners are aware, but if not, they can check it outâCASEL.org. And theyâve got these five competencies. Theyâve taken the ideaâokay, empathy, self-reflection, and self-awarenessâand packaged it in a way where we can pinpoint it clearly, you know, so we can look at those CASEL Five. They call them self-awareness, self-management, responsible decision-making, relationship skills, and social awareness. Theyâve framed it with those five, and you can see a lot of schools thinking about that.
Instead of, likeâIâve been aroundâIâve been a teacher and a parentâsome schools doing all rewards and punishments, this is framing it in a new way where we can think about things a little more deeply. Itâs about building up those five skills or parts of the framework in a person over time, with the whole school hopefully involved, because it takes a lot of work.
Roberto GermĂĄn [00:06:00]:
Absolutely. And you mentioned that itâs not just for students. Oftentimes, when we talk about SEL, we are talking about it from the perspective of meeting the needs of the students. But itâs interesting to think about it in terms of the work that we are doingâor should be doingâin schools to better equip those that are on the ground, right? To better equip school leaders, instructors, and anyone working with our young people so that they have self-awareness, right? That theyâre working on their empathy, that theyâre hitting the CASEL Five. And because theyâre mastering those areas and developing their skillsâwhat was known, as you said, as âsoft skillsâ beforeâthey are better equipped to support our learners in doing so and can model that for our learners 100%.
Dr. Maggie Broderick [00:06:54]:
You got it. And, you know, teacher attritionâIâve heard about it since I started teaching. I became certified to teach in 1994â30 years. And you know, you hear about people leaving and statistics like, âGosh, a huge number of teachers leave in the first five years,â right? You mentioned burnout and all that. If weâre not taking care of the teachers, how can we ask them to give that emotional support and labor for their students if theyâre not getting it for themselves?
Roberto GermĂĄn [00:07:19]:
Right, absolutely. And that actually bleeds into my next question, which is: How does effective SEL implementation influence student well-being? And we could also talk about adult well-being, particularly in terms of mental health and academic performance. If you have some examples from schools or districts that have seen significant improvements through SEL programs, that would be good to hear. And one of the reasons Iâm asking this question is because, while you and I support SEL, we know that there are others who donât. Thereâs been a push against SEL initiatives. I live in Florida, and I say this in a lot of my episodesâIâm sorry that I have to say this, folks, but it is what it is. This is the reality of the state that I live inâprograms such as SEL are getting shunned. So maybe you could speak to the importance of how this plays into mental health, academic performance, and again, any examples of school districts or schools that have seen significant improvement.
Dr. Maggie Broderick [00:08:33]:
So true. Well, you hit the nail on the head there, Roberto, because I work with people all over the place. Thatâs one of the joys of online teaching and learning, right? I have students where you are in Florida, and I have doctoral students elsewhere. Iâm like, âOkay, if weâre writing a course here for these learners, if I write it and say, âHereâs an approach we might think aboutâsay SEL or something else, like you mentioned in some of your episodesâculturally responsive techniques, which are super, super important, making sure that you have culturally sustaining pedagogy,ââ which I saw in some of your podcasts.â And so saying that message to a teacher in Florida has a different impact on that teacher than, say, in Massachusetts. Iâm in Pennsylvania, and Iâm from Massachusetts.
Roberto GermĂĄn [00:09:15]:
Oh wow, see, weâre all connected. My cousins are up there!
Dr. Maggie Broderick [00:09:19]:
Yeah! So I can speak acutely to the difference that I experienced as an educator in Massachusetts and now as someone in the education space here in Florida.
Dr. Maggie Broderick [00:09:29]:
Isnât that the truth? Yeah. So itâs like, you have to think, âHow will the teacher internalize that message weâre saying?â Whether itâs about having culturally sustaining pedagogy, culturally responsive teaching, or SELâhow is that then connecting research and practice, and what are they going to do with it, right? So itâs really going to depend. I was just talking about that the other day. But yeah, I think itâs important to think about how things like SEL dovetail with that approach because we want to use that as a guiding compass, which I can talk about a little more later, and meet students where they are, right? Those interpersonal and intrapersonal skills are key.
One example Iâll shareâbecause there are way too manyâis Sanford Harmony. It does stem more out of California, and like you said, politically, theyâre a little more receptive there, right? So Sanford Harmony, which is now called Harmony Academy, has a program available that people can utilize in their schools from grades PK through 6. It demonstrates evidence of effectiveness, and they measure it at grade 5. They even have the program available in English and Spanish, which I think is great. Theyâre partnered with different schools, and what I see from them when I talk to folks at Harmony is that some schools adopt the whole program, while in others, it might just be one teacher implementing it in a single classroom.
I always think, âHey, start small,â right? They have some free resources on their site, which is great. So I love that and always point people there. Theyâve got examples on their site of schools where implementation has occurred, and not just in Californiaâall over. Basically, you can start with any angle that addresses an issue, whether itâs starting small in your classroom or, if youâre able to, leading a whole school with support from your stateâthat would be great. But if not, even starting small can decrease stereotyping, bullying, and aggression. You can take a very short amount of timeâjust five or ten minutes a dayâand build from it.
When I think about what they do at Harmony and those examples on their site, I think about my doctoral students. It happens for them as well, you know? The same things that a first grader, second grader, or third grader needs to think aboutâworking as a team or reflecting on emotionsâapply to adult learners too. Getting a doctorate is really hard and frustrating, right? So the same exact lessons apply to adults. We have many doctoral students pursuing dissertations about SEL at National University. We also have courses where they can decide how deeply they want to engageâwhether they implement a full school program or start small.
So yeah, Sanford Harmony is a great example. They have a zillion examples on their site, whether itâs big-scale implementation or starting with small, simple practices like reducing bullying and stereotyping. The key is addressing those internal emotional and social challenges in students, and then helping them engage with others.
Roberto GermĂĄn [00:13:01]:
Right. And a couple of times I heard you mention âstart small.â It makes me think about integration, and Iâm wondering: What are the common challenges or misconceptions that educators face when trying to integrate SEL into their classrooms? And how can teachers overcome these barriers to create a more supportive learning environment?
Dr. Maggie Broderick [00:13:28]:
I mean, thatâs the goal. When I think back to my own teaching, I taught music, and I just wanted everyone to have that sense of belongingâyou know, heck, weâre an ensemble, right? Weâre supposed to play music together, and if weâre not feeling thatâmy kids would call it a âvibe.â My kids are 22, 18, and 13, so Iâm thinking of their wordâif they donât feel the vibe, if they donât feel the belonging and the support, then itâs not going to work.
But just like you said, there are misconceptions out there. We find misinformation very often, just like with anything else. Thereâs a lot of noise, and itâs tricky, especially with politics. Social media will put things out there, and itâs not exactly rightâit gets conflated. Like you mentioned, SEL is really just about humansâwho could really say, âOh, weâre against that?â But when itâs conflated with other things, lumped together, and people jump to conclusions, it creates a lot of noise.
I think people see that noise and think, âIâm against this,â without fully understanding what SEL is. During COVID, people needed SEL more than ever, but some got confused about what it really was. Ultimately, SEL is about being human, about what weâre supposed to think about as humans. So, for those who are curious, I would suggest doing a library search, a Google Scholar search, or finding primary sources about SEL and diving into those instead of just listening to the noise. Itâs so easy to find misinformation or political polarization around SEL, but it doesnât have to be that way. Weâre all human, and everyone can benefit from growing.
Roberto GermĂĄn [00:15:34]:
Thatâs right. And Iâm going to continue to build on the notion of starting small because Iâm thinking about educators who are new to the field. A lot of new folks are coming in because so many experienced teachers have been leaving. In many places, theyâre still struggling with teacher vacancies. So, for teachers stepping in, where everything feels newâincluding SELâwhat are two or three strategies you would recommend they implement to get started?
Dr. Maggie Broderick [00:16:34]:
Yeah, thatâs so smart. You have me thinking backâit makes me feel a little old thinking that itâs almost 30 years agoâbut I remember being a young teacher, 22 years old or whatever it was, feeling so excited, thinking, âOh gosh, I know this and this and this. I love teaching music, and the kids are gonna love it.â Then you get into the classroom, and some things go well, but some lessons donât go as planned. You have classroom management issues and all of that. It can be daunting, exhausting, and overwhelming.
Then there are relationships with other teachers. I remember being a young teacher and hearing older teachers say, âThis isnât how we do it hereâyou need to do it our way.â So, with that in mind, it really helps to take the temperature of where you are. Are you in a school climate where SEL is embraced? If so, greatâjump in and do it! If not, find those few people who are aligned with your thinking and work with them. That helps, first of all.
Otherwise, it can be overwhelming. Classroom management is probably one of the main reasons teachers leave the profession. Itâs tough. So, with that in mind, start small. One great strategy from Sanford Harmony is the âMeet Up.â Itâs a simple way to foster a sense of community in your classroom.
I remember my principal giving me really great guidance when I was a young teacher. She didnât tell me how to write a lesson plan, but she did say, âHave something at the very beginning of class that sets the tone.â So, I started putting on music and having the students do a journaling activity. That was 30 years ago, but itâs the same idea. If you have something like the âMeet Upâ strategy at the beginning of class, youâre setting a tone: âWe care about how we treat each other here.â
Have a little meeting where students share ideas, explain celebrationsââHey, this is great; I saw so-and-so helping another student yesterdayââand set goals. It doesnât take more than 15 minutes, but it sets the tone for the class and fosters a sense of belonging.
Another strategy from Sanford Harmony is âBuddy Up,â where students are paired with peers to build relationships and get to know each other. I do something similar with my doctoral students. If I see one of them floundering, I might suggest they connect with a peer or someone who recently graduated. It helps create a sense of belonging and community, even for adult learners.
So, I would suggest checking out the Sanford Harmony site for those small strategies, along with the CASEL Five. Start small, and then build from there.
Roberto GermĂĄn [00:19:54]:
Yeah. I think that, in terms of setting the tone and helping folks feel like they belongâhelping students feel like they belongâitâs important that we communicate and maintain intentionality. That intentionality should be consistent, and it should become contagious. Part of our duty in setting the tone is modeling for our learners but also affirming them when we see them doing the things that help our community and foster a sense of belonging.
Dr. Maggie Broderick [00:20:44]:
Love it. Love it. Yes.
Roberto GermĂĄn [00:20:46]:
So, looking ahead, what do you see as the long-term benefits of SEL for both students and schools? And how can educators and administrators ensure that SEL remains a priority in the ever-evolving educational landscape? Because itâs competing with a lot of different things. Even though I think that sometimes we allow for all these things to be in competition when, oftentimes, some of them should work in conjunction. Part of what we teach is that anti-bias work, anti-racist work, and creating spaces focused on culturally sustaining practices should work in conjunction with SEL, not in isolation. So, Iâm wondering how you view the future outlook in terms of the long-term benefits of SEL and ensuring that it remains a priority in the changing landscape of education.
Dr. Maggie Broderick [00:21:55]:
I agree with you 100%. Those things go together in my mind. I totally picture sort of diagrams in my head sometimesâlike a Venn diagramâwhere these things overlap beautifully to help us understand that weâre all human.
I think one way to keep SEL a priority is to realize, as we said earlier, that itâs not just for students. We can talk about different approaches to literacy or math instruction, and those things might change with the wind every 10 years, but being human doesnât. So, if we as teachers and leadersâadministrators in educationârealize that we need SEL too, weâll hold on to it. Itâs not just something for students to help fit into a curriculum or meet Common Core standards.
I was on another podcast recently, and we talked about how the only constant in education is change. Every 10 years, we get a new approach to literacy instruction, a new method for teaching math, or new family and cultural dynamics to consider. Change is always happening. Teachers know itâs true for them, so they need to be ready to embrace it. Whether youâre new to SEL or already have a foundation, starting small helps sustain it over time.
Itâs important to recognize that SEL isnât just a passing fad or a temporary initiative. Itâs not something we can say, âWeâre doing this now, and then weâll move on to something else.â Itâs about being human, and thatâs not going to change. Instead of throwing everything at teachers all at once, we can infuse SEL gradually and keep building on it. Itâs really more of a perspective and an approach rather than a rigid, cookie-cutter program.
The relationship between teacher and student is so important, as are the relationships with families and communities. I think about my adult learners too. When a doctoral student defends their dissertation, sometimes their spouse, significant other, or parent is there to support themâeven if theyâre 45 years old! Iâll ask, âDoes anyone else want to speak?â and sometimes their mom, whoâs been quietly cheering them on, will unmute and say how proud she is. Itâs beautiful.
Whether weâre talking about a five-year-old child on their first day of school or a 50-year-old adult earning their doctorate, SEL matters. Itâs about fostering those human connections and understanding that this isnât just some trendâitâs for everyone, at every age.
Roberto GermĂĄn [00:24:46]:
Absolutely, absolutely. Well, this is the part of the interview where I get to ask you: If you had the opportunity to have lunch with anyone, dead or alive, who would it be and why?
Dr. Maggie Broderick [00:25:00]:
This is a hard one. I looked at the questions earlier, and I knew this was one you sometimes ask. I had to really think about it. Honestly, it makes me emotional because I thought about answering with a celebrity or an inspirational academic scholar. I mean, would I like to talk to Vygotsky? SureâIâve been very inspired by his work.
But truthfully, Iâd want to spend time with someone I lost years ago: my dad. He passed away 20 years ago, and if I could, Iâd love to catch up with him. Todayâs topic is SEL, and being authentic is a huge part of that. Itâs about being open, communicating, and really expressing whatâs in your heart. So, if I could have lunch with anyone, it would be my dad.
Roberto GermĂĄn [00:25:51]:
Thank you for sharing that. We appreciate the vulnerability. Whatâs a message of encouragement youâd like to offer the audience?
Dr. Maggie Broderick [00:26:02]:
Thinking about your audience as teachersâand how important it is for them to sustain themselves while giving so much of their heartsâI would say, take time to truly know your heart. Life can be confusing, overwhelming, and exhausting. As educators, we give a lot to others, but in the end, your heart wonât steer you wrong. Reflect on what brings you joy and motivates you. Let your heart guide you.
For me, no matter what Iâm doing, I always have the heart of a teacher. Thatâs my compass. When I find myself in situations, I ask, âIs this true to my heart?â If you can stay true to your heart, it helps with SEL and with what youâre called to do as a teacher.
Roberto GermĂĄn [00:26:59]:
âStay true to your heartââthatâs a great message. For those who want to learn more about your work, connect with you, or expand their SEL toolbox, where can they reach you?
Dr. Maggie Broderick [00:27:16]:
Thanks! I can give three ways. First, LinkedInâyou can look me up there. Second, my email address is [email protected]. Finally, I run a public-facing center at National University called the Advanced Research Center (ARC). If you search for âNational University Advanced Research Center,â youâll find me there. At ARC, we guide scholars, faculty, staff, students, and alumni towards presentations and publications. Those are three ways to connect with me.
Roberto GermĂĄn [00:27:53]:
There you have it, folksâthree ways to connect with Dr. Maggie Broderick and take some gems from this episode to apply to your practice. If youâre in classroom spaces, we encourage you to start small on your SEL journey and utilize the resources available to you. One, because itâs good for your own mental health and sustainability in the classroom, and two, because itâs great for our learners. They need these skills to navigate relational dynamics in school and beyond. The more we can equip them, the better theyâll be able to handle the situations they encounter in life, both positive and negative.
Thank you, Maggie, for the insight youâve offered us here and for the scholarly work youâve been doing around SEL for years. We appreciate you and look forward to learning more from you.
Dr. Maggie Broderick [00:29:10]:
Thank you so much. Itâs been a pleasure, as always.
Roberto GermĂĄn [00:29:12]:
As always, your engagement in Our Classroom is greatly appreciated. Be sure to subscribe, rate the show, and write a review. Finally, for resources to help you understand the intersection of race, bias, education, and society, go to multiculturalclassroom.com. Peace and love from your host, Roberto GermĂĄn.
