Roberto Germán [00:00:01]:
Welcome to Our Classroom. In this space, we talk about education, which is inclusive of, but not limited to what happens in schools. Education is taking place whenever and wherever we are willing to learn. I am your host, Roberto Germán, and Our Classroom is officially in session.
Roberto Germán [00:00:27]:
Welcome back to Our Classroom, folks. I’m joined by Mike Tinoco. Mike, did I say that right?
Mike Tinoco [00:00:34]:
Yeah. Thank you.
Roberto Germán [00:00:35]:
All right. It’s important for me to make sure I enunciate, I pronounce correctly the names of the folks on my platform. Mike is an educator and a nonviolence teacher from San Jose, California, certified trainer in nonviolent communication and Kenyan nonviolence. And he is committed to helping create a world that demands justice, centers love, and holds room for everyone to be a part of the beloved community. Thanks for being on the platform, Mike.
Mike Tinoco [00:01:07]:
Thank you for having me, Roberto. I appreciate it, brother.
Roberto Germán [00:01:09]:
Oh, it’s my pleasure. My pleasure. I’m excited to talk to you about your book about the notion of nonviolence, about your training, your background. And part of the reason is that when I was principal at a small private school in Austin, we were incorporating this, and I saw the difference that it made. And that was a new experience for me because I can’t say that in my other stops along the way, in my journey as an educator and as a school leader, that this was very present. The NVC was very present. Nonviolent communication.
Roberto Germán [00:01:50]:
So your book is talking about rethinking nonviolence. And I’m curious to know why you find it important to rethink nonviolence.
Mike Tinoco [00:02:07]:
Yeah, I mean, there’s, I think, a few reasons why I think that’s important. I mean, I think the large one is that there are so many misconceptions about what nonviolence is and what it’s not. And I know for myself, for the longest time, I held a kind of skewed understanding of what nonviolence was just because of what I was told it was. You know, this idea that it’s just being passive and that it’s being not violent and that it’s conflict-averse or just merely the absence of violence, when in fact nonviolence at its core is really about engaging—engaging with conflict, engaging with life, disrupting at times. Sometimes it’s messy, it’s about making noise, and it’s deeply centered in sustaining relationality. So nonviolence is about affirming life and trying to bring people together to create communities, to sustain communities. And I just did not have that understanding until I sort of did a deep dive into nonviolence and started learning and really understanding how it has been practiced in different movements, particularly the civil rights movement.
Roberto Germán [00:03:24]:
And your book, Heart at the Center, so many words that catch my attention there, right? Heart at the Center: An Educator’s Guide to Sustaining Love, Hope, and Community Through Nonviolence Pedagogy. Oof. That title is full, man. That title is full. And I want you to, just for a moment, tell me: What are the two words in that title that really stand out to you? When I read the title, immediately I’m captured by the word “love,” and I’m also captured by the word “sustaining.”
Roberto Germán [00:04:09]:
Because love is so important, right? If we’re moving in love, if our words are loving, if our actions are loving, then typically we’re gonna see that type of response back. And if we’re able to sustain that, you know, then I think we could create a more harmonious society. So when I was just reading your title, I’m like, yeah, man, this, this hits at the heart, right? Pun intended. But what are the two words in the title of your book that stand out to you?
Mike Tinoco [00:04:43]:
I appreciate the question. I don’t know that I’ve ever thought of that.
Roberto Germán [00:04:46]:
Like, I just came up with it. I just came up with it.
Mike Tinoco [00:04:48]:
No, that’s great. No, that’s great. Narrowing it down to two. I mean, I don’t know, there’s something about… I mean, it’s similar to what you just said—like being heart-centered, like really leading with the heart. And, and I’m going to borrow from Dr. King here. To me, that doesn’t mean sort of like this emotional bosh, as he would call it, right. It’s, it’s about being able to practice vulnerability, discerning…
Mike Tinoco [00:05:15]:
…when I can sort of take the armor off. There are times where we might need to armor up, right? But being able to discern when I can lean into vulnerability for the sake of creating and sustaining community, practicing empathy, and receiving empathy. Sometimes that might just be having empathy for myself, or other times it might be having empathy for others. But really shifting away from getting just stuck in the head. There’s a time and a place for the kind of intellectualizing and, you know, all of that. But I find especially in schools, folks can be discouraged from, quote-unquote, “being emotional” or tapping into their emotions and feeling like they need to, quote, “act professional.”
So I think being able to embrace and acknowledge the full range of our emotional experience and to have clarity around what needs these emotions are pointing to is really important. So, to answer your question—like everything you said—and I think just “heart-centered” stands out to me as a prominent idea.
Roberto Germán [00:06:27]:
Beautiful, beautiful, beautiful. And I hope folks really gravitate towards that notion of being heart-centered because there is so much division and so much tension. And you gotta question, why is it so easy for many of us to get caught up in the divide and the barriers instead of breaking down those walls of division and creating a notion of proximity?
Getting back to understanding NVC, nonviolent communication, you started getting into this a bit, but can you explain a little bit more about NVC and the value in engaging in the practice? Just if you could build on what you started in the first question?
Mike Tinoco [00:07:12]:
Absolutely. So NVC is short for nonviolent communication. It’s a few things. It’s a dialogic practice, one that is often used in interpersonal relationships to help strengthen relationships and support people in navigating conflict. It’s also a consciousness practice in that the more I can sort of become adept at being aware of what my needs are in any given moment, and my unmet needs, and understanding what feelings are connected to those needs, I can move through the world more freely.
What I mean by that is I’m less likely to blame other people for what I’m experiencing within myself. That doesn’t absolve other people for things they say or do that may have an impact on me, especially if we’re viewing the world through a sort of interdependent lens. But if I’m feeling, let’s say, agitated because someone says something that I feel disrespected by, if I can tap into what need is not being met for me and what experiences I’ve had in my life that are stimulating that for me, I can have empathy for myself.
Like, okay, I’m really angry when this person said that thing because this is reminding me of all of this history. So NVC, it’s a consciousness practice in that sense where when we can continually be attuned to those needs and our feelings, we can slow down and not operate from this reactive place where we’re resorting to blame, shaming, or moralistic judgments.
As a teacher, it’s really helpful to catch when judgments may start to form, whether it’s a judgment about a colleague or a student, and to slow down and notice: okay, this thought that’s arising in my head—there’s a need beneath that. So can I slow down and really connect with what that need is? And then from there, I can engage with that person differently than if I just created a story in my head about who that person is.
Roberto Germán [00:09:24]:
Man, those are serious skills for folks to develop, right? Like, we need that. And I want to acknowledge that there’s serious work to do to be able to master those skills. And I think it would be helpful if you can…
You mentioned unmet needs. You also talked about identifying feelings. I think it’ll be helpful if you can offer an example, if you can share a moment in your own journey where you recognized an unmet need that led to a significant breakthrough or shift in perspective. And also, if you could help us, help the listeners, consider where to begin as they develop this awareness in their own lives.
Mike Tinoco [00:10:15]:
Absolutely. And I want to add, too, there’s a really important piece that I want to emphasize: nonviolent communication rests on the assumption that all behaviors are attempts to meet needs. All behaviors are attempts to meet needs. That’s not something I grew up with, nor my parents. Right? This is something I learned in adulthood.
I want to just give a couple of examples of feelings and needs so folks can get a sense. For teachers, I imagine a lot of us have experienced those mornings where, like, the copy machine is broken, the internet is down, you’re running late because there’s traffic.
Roberto Germán [00:11:03]:
I’m starting to feel stressed with you just describing the scenario.
Mike Tinoco [00:11:07]:
Right? Yeah. And earlier today, our internet was down, so I was starting to feel like that anxiety—like, oh man, do I have to come up with something else on the fly? But then there are, of course, those abundance of beautiful moments where maybe we’re sharing stories or poetry in the class with the kids, or it’s the first few days of the school year. Like, this is our third week of school. It’s just going beautifully.
I’m feeling a lot of joy and a lot of excitement because there’s a need for community, a need for creating a sense of belonging, and it’s starting to happen. Right? We’re manifesting that together.
Those are just a couple of examples of emotions that many of us experience when our needs are met or not met.
To answer the other part of your question, can I think of a pivotal turning point when I recognized a need? Absolutely. Actually, it’s about learning about nonviolence itself. This was way back early in my teaching career, when I was kind of stumbling into learning about nonviolence and Dr. King’s notion of agape love.
Mike Tinoco [00:12:24]:
I remember really gravitating toward wanting to learn more and struggling with how to articulate it to other friends and educators. I was so early in this journey. I wanted to figure out, like, okay, how do I translate some of this into what I’m doing in the classroom? Some of it I felt like I was already doing—it was kind of intuitive. And other parts, I was struggling.
In some social justice spaces and activist spaces, sometimes things can get toxic. Sometimes we may resort to patterns in the domination culture unwittingly—shaming, blaming—that create harm in the first place.
I would see some of that, and when I was trying to invoke ideas of nonviolence, it just fell flat. When I learned about nonviolent communication in particular and got clarity about the need I was really wanting to fulfill—which was hope—hope for a different way of being and a sense that this path could offer us a viable way to the future and the immediate near future where we don’t have to mirror this kind of existing paradigm in the domination culture.
When I got that clarity for myself that what I was really wanting, the core need, was hope, that helped me just trust and kind of forge ahead, even though there was some resistance. Not everybody was on board with it at the time I was trying to share it.
There was a lot of grief and mourning prior to that. I thought, like, well, am I off base? Some folks were just really not about this nonviolence. I was able to remove my judgment of those folks and just trust—okay, they’re on their journey, I’m on mine, and this is helping to fulfill my need because this is what feels right for me and for my students.
I hope that answers your question.
Roberto Germán [00:14:23]:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Thank you. Thank you for taking us there. I think it’s important for us to hear about this firsthand experience with the practice of nonviolent communication and also understanding that everything’s not necessarily going to go as smoothly as you might think, right, or envision. But you still gotta press forward with the work.
I was intrigued by some of the structure of your book and your own self-reflection. Then you ask the reader to engage in self-reflection also. I was like, well, let me do it!
He’s asking the reader to do it. So I want to share my self-reflection, and then you can respond with whatever comes to mind for you as you listen.
Roberto, when you experience colorism, you felt betrayed because you needed to be affirmed. You quickly learned that skin folk don’t make everyone kinfolk.
This is an important lesson because sometimes we develop false pretexts about how people should be or the way they should engage based on certain identifications. We have to be able to discern that each one of us is different. We are individuals and must respect the uniqueness and diversity of perspectives and understanding.
Be encouraged by the fact that this will inspire you to seek and develop meaningful relationships where there is true human connection and great opportunity to grow in community because the relationships will have more depth, more authenticity, and recognition of the fact that our similarities and differences can both be celebrated.
This was based on the prompt in which you were reflecting and writing a letter to the younger version of you. I forgot what chapter that was in, but maybe chapter one? Yeah, but I appreciated the prompt and I wanted to do something different in this interview and engage with the text more fully. So thank you, first and foremost, for sharing of yourself, for making yourself vulnerable and sharing your story, and for encouraging the readers to also do some self-reflection.
Now I’ll open it up for you to respond.
Mike Tinoco [00:17:05]:
Yeah, well, first off, I just want to thank you for also stepping into that vulnerability. You said just a moment ago, trying something different on the show—so maybe taking the risk in that way, of maybe sharing something, I don’t know if that’s more personal than what you would typically share. But already, like, I’m learning more about you.
I have a clarifying question, if you’re open to sharing. What time period is this referencing? Like, how young is Roberto in that letter you’re writing to?
Roberto Germán [00:17:38]:
Yeah, I’d say probably as young as seventh grade. Let’s see, I was, I don’t know, 12, right? I think seventh grade, probably around 12 years old or so.
Mike Tinoco [00:17:50]:
Right. And that first line really strikes me where you say, “Roberto, when you experience colorism, you felt betrayed because you needed to be affirmed.” I also wonder if you were feeling hurt because you were also wanting some trust—that you could lean on these folks in your community or whatever the context was—but that need wasn’t met.
I’m wondering if trust was one of those core needs that just went unfulfilled.
Roberto Germán [00:18:15]:
Yeah, I think that’s fair. I think that’s fair. Even though I was writing to my younger self and thinking about probably as early as seventh grade where I’m starting to realize some things, I think the self-reflection is probably an extension through adolescence and into my adulthood—especially as I work to create a deeper understanding and more connections with my Dominican identity.
My parents are Dominican immigrants from the Dominican Republic, and it’s always been a big part of my identity. But I’m Dominican-American. That’s my heritage. But I was born and raised here, so I live in this duality. Interestingly enough, I’ve always felt some tension with a number of Dominicans in terms of not necessarily letting me in because of their own biases, you know, because of their own internalized issues with Blackness.
Roberto Germán [00:19:17]:
…So for me, the exercise was helpful in terms of identifying, as we were stating earlier, right, the unmet need and having this awareness—which I’ve had. But going through such an exercise also gives me the room, the grace, the license to express, to feel, to acknowledge, and to address.
Mike Tinoco [00:20:00]:
And it also helps us to be clear about what kind of spaces we’re trying to create with our kids, right? Having that clarity around what needs you were really longing to have met helps us be mindful that our young people too are going to want to have those needs met.
So what can we do? How can we attend to creating spaces that will allow those needs to be addressed to the greatest extent possible—needs for safety, belonging, trust, affirmation, et cetera?
There’s one other piece I just wanted to say about your self-reflection, which is that I appreciate that you acknowledge the pain and the hurt, but you also include what it is you’re really wanting to move toward—developing meaningful relationships where there’s connection, growth, being part of community. Those are also needs, right?
So it’s not staying stuck in despair but moving toward what your vision is and what those needs are. That was one other piece I wanted to mention about what nonviolent communication is. I’m borrowing from a prominent teacher, Miki Kashtan, when she says, “Needs pull us toward vision.”
When we have clarity about what our needs are, sometimes it’s a very microcosmic vision—like, “I’m hungry, and I want food. My vision is to have a nice nourishing meal.” But sometimes it can be more grand: “My vision entails justice for all people, liberation.”
It’s pulling us toward something, so it’s not just battling against but pulling toward. And that’s what this evoked for me—very much the latter part of your reflection is what it’s moving you toward.
Roberto Germán [00:21:39]:
Yeah, thanks for sharing. Honestly, I’m not sure if I could have framed it that way when I was younger. I don’t think I had the skills. I don’t think I had the language. I don’t think I had the self-awareness of what I really needed.
And when I was younger, I also wasn’t receiving any of this type of training that would equip me with the skills. Props to my teachers for doing what they did, but they weren’t doing this—or anybody else around me for that matter.
Mike Tinoco [00:22:15]:
Yeah, no, absolutely. And this is adult Roberto who’s including the vision piece, right? So I think I’m with you on that. Younger Mike, when I was writing to younger Mike, I certainly didn’t have that clarity about what I was needing—which is really tragic, right? When we don’t even know what we need, not even conscious of it.
Roberto Germán [00:22:33]:
Yeah. So just transitioning a bit—you know, we at Multicultural Classroom often talk about counternarratives and challenging dominant stories. An observation that I made in your book is you introduce the concept of reclaiming our stories to describe creating new stories or interrupting existing ones. I love it, I love it, I love it.
So how can reclaiming our stories reshape our understanding of identity and culture? And how can our listeners start reclaiming their own stories?
Mike Tinoco [00:23:18]:
Yeah, such an important question. First off, I think NVC is critical in this regard because when I have clarity around what my needs are and I can practice self-empathy, I can remove those kinds of judgments that may seep in.
Sometimes it’s other people’s judgments that, if I’m not careful, I can internalize. If I’m internalizing other people’s judgments about who I am or ought to be, that’s not my real story. My real story is about, like, who are my people? What do I know about my family?
Sometimes not all of us are privy to those stories, so that can be life’s work—to excavate and learn. I know that to be true for myself. But at the core, beneath the labels of my identity, there are needs there—and that’s the thing we all share as human beings, right?
When I can be attuned to what is at the core of what I’m yearning for, and I can hold myself with compassion and hold others with compassion, and not let those judgments seep in—I believe that’s an important part of reclaiming our stories.
In the book, you probably remember that story of the civil rights elder Gloria Washington Lewis Randall, right? She was one of the child soldiers in the Children’s Crusade in Birmingham in 1963. She and her friends and family were told by white folks who they needed to be and the social location they needed to occupy. And they refused to let that story proliferate.
So it was a real gift to be able to talk to her and hear about how, very courageously, they disrupted that story and held firm to what they knew to be true about themselves—that they were beautiful, resilient, valued community, and were guided by love.
There’s reclamation in that sense—remaining tethered to their own humanity and that of others. It’s a really powerful way of engaging with life and the world, but it requires a tremendous amount of work, skill, training, and support, especially when folks are actively opposing you. That takes a lot of work.
So it feels important for me to say that as a nonviolence practitioner and trainer, a lot of my work is about honoring where folks are at, having compassion for folks, and understanding that not everybody is able to be at the same place or agree with all that nonviolence entails. But hopefully, we can just move closer and closer toward this way of being where we can remain connected to our humanity and that of others.
Roberto Germán [00:26:28]:
Well said, well said.
Roberto Germán [00:26:28]:
Well said, well said. Well, Mike, let’s get to the fun part of the interview. If you had an opportunity to have lunch with anybody, dead or alive, who would it be and why?
Mike Tinoco [00:26:43]:
There are two people who come to mind. One is my paternal grandmother, Rachel, whom I never met. She passed away when my dad was a child. But I’ve heard just a number of stories about this woman who, by all accounts, was just the sweetest person.
My dad credits her for his ability to be vulnerable, to be emotive, and for raising me in a way where I learned that it’s okay to cry, it’s okay to express myself. So I would love to just meet her and thank her and learn more about her story. And just thank her in particular for planting seeds of feminism.
And then Dr. King. I would love to have the opportunity to talk to Dr. King and just hear, like, what would he say about where we’re at today? I would love to just thank him for the tireless contributions he’s made to the world. Those are two people among many.
Roberto Germán [00:27:48]:
Great picks. Great picks. Well, what’s your message of encouragement to our audience?
Mike Tinoco [00:27:57]:
I think one of the things I would like to say is, when you’re feeling in a pit of despair, to just give yourself permission to slow down, self-connect, empathize, and lean on community. Find the folks at your school who you can trust.
Sometimes we have to go outside of the school to stay connected to a support system. Just stay connected to people—don’t isolate, to the greatest extent possible. And I know sometimes that’s hard to do if we’re at a site where we might feel isolated.
So just give yourself permission to slow down, self-connect, and do the things that bring you joy because that’s your birthright. I know I’m going to rock climb later today. That’s a non-negotiable for me—I do that multiple times a week.
And then the last thing I’ll say, and this also circles back to an earlier question you asked, Roberto, that I might not have fully answered: how can folks begin to practice NVC? There’s a list of feelings and needs available online. You can just Google it; it’s also in my book.
Sometimes just having a tangible list of needs and feelings is really helpful. I keep it with me—I always have a list with me. Sometimes I’ll just flip through it if I need to slow down and remind myself: okay, what am I feeling in this moment? Then, why—what’s the need beneath or attached to that feeling? So that’s what I would say as far as words of encouragement.
Roberto Germán [00:29:29]:
Thank you, thank you for sharing. Heart at the Center, folks. Where can people get your book, Heart at the Center: An Educator’s Guide to Sustaining Love, Hope, and Community Through Nonviolence Pedagogy?
Mike Tinoco [00:29:41]:
Yeah, it’s available on several online retailers: Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Powell’s, Bookshop.org, and Routledge, which is the publisher. I have all the links on my website at miketinoco.com. Those are the main places where it can be found.
Roberto Germán [00:30:00]:
And is your website the best spot to follow you if folks want to learn more about your work or they’re looking to hire you as a trainer?
Mike Tinoco [00:30:08]:
I would say so. I’m also on Instagram, and I’m trying to have more of a presence there. The handle is @MikeNotMister. So Instagram or my website, miketinoco.com.
Roberto Germán [00:30:22]:
Mike, thanks for being here. It was a pleasure to engage with you again. I appreciate connecting with the work, going through the prompt, learning more about NVC, learning more about your heart for this type of work, and certainly being impacted by what you shared and by the content of your book, Heart at the Center: An Educator’s Guide to Sustaining Love, Hope, and Community Through Nonviolence Pedagogy.
I definitely want to see more educators gravitate toward this text. I want to see more schools and other spaces—community spaces—implement not just this approach, but certainly the way Mike has framed things in his book. I think it’s extremely helpful, as he stated, for what we’re going through as a country right now.
So folks, seriously, go get yourself a copy of this book. You will not regret it.
Mike Tinoco [00:31:16]:
Roberto, thank you, brother. I appreciate the invitation. This was wonderful. Thank you.
Roberto Germán [00:31:21]:
As always, your engagement in Our Classroom is greatly appreciated. Be sure to subscribe, rate the show, and write a review. Finally, for resources to help you understand the intersection of race, bias, education, and society, go to multiculturalclassroom.com. Peace and love from your host, Roberto Germán.
