Roberto Germán [00:00:01]:
Welcome to Our Classroom. In this space, we talk about education, which is inclusive of but not limited to what happens in schools. Education is taking place whenever and wherever we are willing to learn. I am your host, Roberto Germán, and Our Classroom is officially in session. Welcome back to Our Classrooms, folks. Today I am joined by Sarah M. Zerwin, Dr. Zerwin, a high school English teacher at Fairview High School in Boulder, Colorado, where they are experiencing some wildfires. So we send the prayers to y'all that those fires may calm down, especially as you prepare to start the school year.
Roberto Germán [00:00:54]:
Wow. Just like that. Just like that. Back in school, folks. Get excited. Get excited. And you students should be excited because Sarah has three decades in the classroom. So we're not talking about a rookie.
Roberto Germán [00:01:09]:
All right, no shade to the rookie teachers. But there's something that we take this, there's a lot of value in the veterans. All right? So shout out to all the veteran teachers. And Sarah's not just a veteran teacher, but someone that continues to adapt her practice and evolving to meet the needs of her students. National presenter and consultant, Sarah is the author of Pointless, an English teacher's guide to more meaningful grading. That's what we're going to talk about here today. I'm excited to talk about this because haven't really talked about grading too much on the platform, but off the platform with a lot of folks is something that I have discussed. And so thank you, Sarah, for lending your expertise to Our Classroom.
Sarah M. Zerwin [00:02:00]:
Thank you, Roberto. I'm so happy to be here today with you.
Roberto Germán [00:02:04]:
Well, I'm curious to hear your perspective. I think we have some alignment, but you've definitely done much deeper thinking and some concrete work. You've been writing about this, working on this, reflecting on this. And so let's go ahead and jump into it. Let's talk about the benefits and challenges of shifting grading power from teachers to students as outlined in chapter five of your book. Step aside. Yeah, let's talk to me a little bit about that because I think for a lot of people, that is a radical shift. And even for those who theoretically may embrace that and may agree, my sense is that they may have some struggles in implementation.
Roberto Germán [00:03:04]:
And so talk to us about the benefits and the challenges.
Sarah M. Zerwin [00:03:11]:
Yeah, and you're right. There are a lot of, I think, obstacles in people's thinking for implementation of any changes from traditional grading. And so I have another book coming out this winter, and it's called step aside, as you mentioned. And it's a book about wider practices in the classroom for teaching reading and writing. So that students are out front driving the work. But the grading chapter in there really represents an update of my thinking, the evolution of my thinking, since I wrote pointless, because I've been, you know, I wrote pointless and I'm still working in the classroom. And so things evolve as time goes on, and I refine my practices and try to get things to be a little. To work a little bit better from year to year.
Sarah M. Zerwin [00:03:54]:
And in terms of the challenges we are up against. A system like traditional grading is a system that organizes the classroom and organizes schools. And so it's really, really scary for teachers to think about doing anything different against that. And the traditional grading system, the way I define it, is that there's this exchange at the center of the classroom where the teacher asks students to do something and then they get paid with points or grades or whatever the case may be, that they can then cash in for a grade in the class that then will matter to them for whatever reason it matters to them. It's this, you know, this exchange system, and it centers like, the whole classroom centers and orbits on that exchange. And so for teachers to think about removing the center of the classroom is really, really scary, and you just have to put something else in the middle instead. And for me, it's been, how can I figure out how to put actual learning in the middle of my classroom? Because when you're focused on grading, that's the center. And kids aren't necessarily learning.
Sarah M. Zerwin [00:05:01]:
They're just focused on collecting points and things. And the reason that we need to do it, though, the benefits is the traditional grading system centers power on the teacher. And what I'm interested in is cultivating student agency and making room for students empowerment that they already have. I think that school really tamps down that power that students have, and great grading is a really, as Cornelius Minor said once in a presentation that I saw him talk about, like, grading is a place where oppression hides in schools. And so if we can get students driving grading more, then it's a place to really cultivate their agency. And I teach reading and writing, right? I'm a high school language arts teacher, and the actual work of reading and writing takes risk taking. It's scary to actually engage in a piece of writing and put yourself out there, and it's scary to, you know, confront a difficult text and do the work that you need to do to really, truly understand it. So we've got to make the classroom safe for taking risks.
Sarah M. Zerwin [00:06:06]:
And the research on grading traditional grading goes back decades and decades and decades. Check out Alfie Cohn's work for all of that. And the research says that grading, it just doesn't encourage students to take risks, among other things. So that's why I've been trying to work at it.
Roberto Germán [00:06:24]:
No, it's important for us to help students take risks, right. That the learning process should be all about that. It should be about learning from your mistakes, making the proper adjustments, getting better, making progress, all of that. So how do you guide students in setting their own learning goals? And what impact have you observed on their engagement and self efficacy?
Sarah M. Zerwin [00:06:48]:
Yeah, great question. And I have really thought about, like, from the whole pointless approach and my book, pointless, like, what are the key practices in grading that really get students focused on learning? And number one is goal setting and reflection. And so I think it's really, really, really important. And the first thing you have to do is put in front of students a set of learning goals that make sense to them. So any teacher, we have an enormous list of curriculum goals and expectations that we are supposed to work on in Our Classroom. You know, for, like, the common Core state standards for high school is like something like 65 standards. That is so way too much to put in front of kids. It's even overwhelming for us as teachers.
Sarah M. Zerwin [00:07:30]:
Right. So the first thing you have to do is narrow down your curriculum goals to a tight list of goals you can put in front of the kids that make sense to them. I recommend no more than ten. And so boil it all down to that. And if you go on my website, sarahzeron.com, on the resources page, there's some examples of some of the learning goals that I've written. Boiling down curriculum for various courses. And even in my goal the last three, I call student or successful human being goals, or like, student practices goals. So just seven, only seven of the goals I put in front of my kids are the actual content goals, and they are simplified in their language.
Sarah M. Zerwin [00:08:13]:
But what they represent is pretty complex work, like revise extensively to improve a piece of writing. And I've got a document for anybody who's worried, like, but are you covering all the standards? I have a document to show them where all the standards are embedded in the goals I put in front of the kids, for anyone who's worried about that. But once the kids have those goals in front of them and they understand what they look like, that's another piece of it. As I wait several weeks before I have them set their goals, I don't even show them the goals until they've done at least a little bit of work towards all of them so that I can point back and say, this goal. Remember when we did that? That's what this goal looks like. And so I want to make sure that they're educated and they understand what they're setting themselves up for. And then they choose three of the content goals or maybe two. It kind of depends on the class, and they personalize them for themselves.
Sarah M. Zerwin [00:09:05]:
They start with, where am I starting and where do I want to end up and what am I going to work on to get there? Now, obviously, kids need a lot of help in how to do this. They need modeling, they need language that they can draw on. I've started putting in place learning progressions where I've sketched out from what's foundational in each of the learning goals. And what does it look like to grow their learning from there so that students can actually sort of self assess? How far along am I in this goal and what might it look like to take a few more steps down the learning progression? So I'm trying to support my students with some new, that's a new tool that I've developed for goal setting and to help them set their goals. So, and in terms of, like, how that's impacted their engagement and self efficacy. Anytime we ask students to make a choice in the classroom, it's an opportunity to cultivate student agency. So it can't be wide open, like completely free choice. It has to be structured choice that makes sense and will help them make choices that help them move towards the goals that the class is addressing.
Sarah M. Zerwin [00:10:15]:
So asking them to set goals is a really powerful way to get students engaged. And I have found that to be true for the whole range of the type of students that I have in my classes, from kids who really don't like language arts or struggle or for whatever reason, to my highest performing students, it just like asking them to set their own goals is huge.
Roberto Germán [00:10:41]:
Like you said, in terms of the expectations upon teachers. Right. Just like we're expected to meet goals, they should be expected to not only meet goals, but helping them get in a rhythm of setting goals is a good practice for them. These are tools that will carry them before, beyond their high school years. I'm wondering what other effective strategies you utilize for encouraging students to engage in ongoing reflection. I think reflection is something that we both value and that they need to reflect in order to see their progress. As a matter of fact, and watching the Olympics, I forgot her name, but there's a competitor in the high jump who every, every time she goes through jumping the bar, she immediately sits down, opens up her journal, and she starts reflecting on her jump. What went well, what she could do better every single time.
Roberto Germán [00:11:39]:
She does not break the routine. And it was fascinating for me to observe that, like, wow. Cause we often think about this in terms of the classroom space. But here's someone who's carried on the practice of reflection beyond the classroom and into what she does as a professional, as a high jumper, sitting there, writing down in her notes every single time, reflecting on the way she just jumped and how it is she could improve. And so, yeah, let's talk about that as it relates to the students in the classroom.
Sarah M. Zerwin [00:12:14]:
Yeah, I love that. I need to look for some video of.
Roberto Germán [00:12:17]:
I'm going to send you the video.
Sarah M. Zerwin [00:12:18]:
Oh, please do. Yeah. Because I want, especially for my sophomores who just, like, developmentally, like, this stuff is really hard for them sometimes, and, like, why should I be doing this? That would be such a great model to show them. And I just spent the last few few days watching my nephew play golf in a tournament. And same deal, like, immediately, like, when he finished the round, he had lunch with us, and then he was back out on the practice tee to figure out to, like, to reflect on what was going well and what wasn't going so well and trying to make it go better. So, yeah, it's constant. Right? It's like this goal setting stuff in the classroom. And reflection on your goals is not just, like, classroom stuff.
Sarah M. Zerwin [00:12:55]:
Like, we're teaching students how to set any goal that matters to them and how to make sure they get there. You can't just set goals and then ignore them. That's what I tell my students. You have to look at them. So I make them look at them every week somehow, and I ask them to think about their performance over the previous week in the class and find one little moment that speaks to how they're doing, good or bad, towards one of their goals and write down the moment somehow and then reflect. Like, think about it. How is that moment showing you that you are getting to where you want to be or that you're not getting to where you want to be? And it's important to not assume that kids know how to do this. We have to model for them constantly.
Sarah M. Zerwin [00:13:41]:
And so I set my own goals, just like the kids do about reading and writing, because I'm a human who reads and writes as all humans do. Right. And so I set my goals using the class goals to show them. Like, these goals are actually, like, I'm not taking this class, but I can use them to meaningfully set goals for myself and then every, every week I model for them. Here's something that happened for me this week that shows me how I'm doing towards this reading goal or towards this writing goal. And I say, here's the moment, here's what I'm thinking about it so that they can see that I'm in the work with them and also I'm a model for them to help them visualize what it looks like to do this kind of goal monitoring and progress monitoring. And I also have them every so often reevaluate themselves on the learning progressions that I put in front of them so that they can actually see their progress on each progression. That helps as well.
Sarah M. Zerwin [00:14:38]:
And, yeah, we've just got another thing is to invite kids to share. Just take a few minutes and say, hey, does anybody have a moment from the last week that you can talk to us about where you saw some growth or didn't see some growth? And so it's just got to like, we have to just teach them how to do it.
Roberto Germán [00:14:55]:
Yeah. And it sounds like you're creating an environment in which students are not only encouraged but also challenged to set goals, share goals, to consider not just their progress, but also the progress or, or the, the lack thereof of others. Right. So it becomes, it just becomes a normal thing in the environment. This is what we do here. And what, what you're doing is helping our youngsters develop life skills. Right. This goal setting stuff and the agency piece, these are life skills that they're gonna be critical for them as they transfer into different environments, work environments, or if they're pursuing a higher ed degree or just in life in general.
Roberto Germán [00:15:46]:
So that's awesome. I'm encouraged to hear that. I love to hear that teachers are focusing on things beyond just like, oh, the text or prepping for the test or whatnot, which I know that's not your style at all. Hence the topic that we are discussing. And when I think about self evaluation practices, I wonder, how can educators effectively teach students to evaluate their own work? And what tools or methods have you found most useful? And I'm thinking about the individuals who are maybe on the cusp of making this shift. So besides helping students set goals, besides supporting them with their student agency, besides them engaging in self reflection and also group reflection, other, other things that folks should consider if they're going to go this route, are there other tools and methods you have found useful? And I know that there are some resources available on your website. Perhaps you could just tell us a little more about tools that folks should be considering if they're making a shift in their grading approach.
Sarah M. Zerwin [00:17:11]:
Yeah, absolutely. And the question really makes me think of rubrics. And so rubrics, like, for example, if you teach advanced Placement English or International Baccalaureate English, there are these rubrics that those organizations have provided for that evaluate the students on those big, high stakes exams that they take. You also may be in a school district or a school where there's a required rubric that you're supposed to use to evaluate student work. And I am not anti evaluative rubrics at all. I'm just anti evaluative rubrics as a grade because then it becomes, every time you use it, it becomes this high stakes situation for the kids where their resulting score on that feels like some sort of like a ranking or a sorting or a judgment on how good they are at something or whatever, and it's attached to their grade and all of that. And that is where the damage really comes in. But evaluative rubrics can be very helpful for students to be using because it gives them a sense of up against some standard, basically, like, how is your work? How does it compare and where do you want to grow and how do you want to get better? Can help them with goal setting and such.
Sarah M. Zerwin [00:18:26]:
And so I say use those rubrics, but don't use them as a grade, ever. Use them as the focus of conversation and peer and self evaluation. And if a rubric score is not a high stakes grade, then it becomes okay for students to evaluate each other's work with that rubric and for it to become just a conversation, a way for us just to talk about this piece of writing or whatever it happens to be. And so, but with that, like we've got to do, we have to teach students how to use it. And every time they engage with that rubric, like, say you're teaching an advanced placement class, every time they engage with that AP rubric, they get to know it better so that when they head into the big evaluative exam, external exam, they're more prepared for that high stakes evaluation opportunity. But in the classroom, then we're just coaching them on how to, like, get their work better for that high stakes event that they have later on down the road. But we've got to model how to use those tools to evaluate student work. And one way that I love to do that is get a kid to volunteer to have the whole class look at their work on the big screen or pull some examples from the previous year or something so that we can all look at it together and we can all talk about the rubric, and we can all think about where does this land and how could it be better? And all of that.
Sarah M. Zerwin [00:19:55]:
And then with those big whole class conversations, then kids are ready to kind of turn to their own work or to turn to each other's work and use that rubric as an opportunity to do some evaluative conversation. And I think rather than the teacher being the one who's always using the rubric and to determine high stakes scores, this really gives agency to the students. And it takes like, rubrics are these tools of power in classrooms for teachers. And when we hand them over to the kids, it's a really powerful moment, I think, of inviting their agency and sharing power with them, which is what I'm really hoping to do in the classroom. But again, we can't just turn them over and expect that the kids are going to be able to use them effectively. And then I like to follow up all of this with conference conversations with kids, because that's a place to really work one on one with each kidde to see how they're understanding about the progress and evaluation of their own work. If we can look at their work together and think about what's going well here, where do you want to get stronger and offer that one on one conversation? I think that that really helps to fill in the pieces and teach kids what it really means to evaluate their own practices. And with those, I always like to put their goals in front of them and say, how does this work line up with this goal that you have about writing? How is it showing that you're progressing or not progressing? So, yeah, more space for conferences in the classroom.
Sarah M. Zerwin [00:21:25]:
Much more. I'm trying to fit in every year.
Roberto Germán [00:21:28]:
I like that. It reminds me of some of the stuff that we were doing at a school I worked at in Austin, Texas, where we would have conferences with the students, and we would even welcome the parents into some of those conferences. So you have your ongoing regular conferences to reflect on their progress. But then quarterly, if I remember correctly, we would, or maybe it wasn't quarterly, I can't remember the frequency. But periodically we would welcome the parents to join those conferences where it was student led. So they're sharing about their work, they're sharing about their progress, they're sharing about their struggle. So I really enjoyed that. That was different than what I was accustomed to in other stops.
Roberto Germán [00:22:24]:
But everybody's not ready for change. So I wonder, have you faced resistance to shift in your approach, resistance from students or parents or administrators in implementing student driven grading?
Sarah M. Zerwin [00:22:40]:
Yeah. That's the biggest obstacle, I think, in people's minds, is the parents are not going to get behind this or the students are not going to like it or my administrators would never let me do this. And so, sure, there's been resistance. Absolutely. Not as much as you would think, however, not as much as you would think. And with any person, whether it's a colleague, a student, a parent, an administrator who is. Who is sort of like presenting me with resistance, I always start with, here's how traditional grading hurts my students, and I lay it out and then I say, here's what I'm doing differently to address that. And almost always I can get people to be like, okay, I can see that.
Sarah M. Zerwin [00:23:26]:
And I'm not like, I know that I don't have every single one of my students on board. There are students who are still probably trying to game my pointless system for grades. I know that, but I know there are fewer students who were in that place than I had before when I was still doing traditional grading. And so it's just like conversation. Open, honest conversation, I think, is the most important thing. And then in terms of, like, say you're one teacher in a school who wants to do something different with your grading, and the overall culture of the school doesn't support it. I teach in a very traditional, large, public american high school that's super academic focused. And not everybody in my school does this.
Sarah M. Zerwin [00:24:11]:
Like, there's a pocket of us in language arts. There's a pocket in social studies. There's a pocket in science. Like, not everybody does it. And so one thing that I recommend to people is if you make your gradebook look really, really different from what people expect, then you're throwing up obstacles and resistance because every time you have to explain to people how to read the grade book, they're going to get annoyed. And so I kind of tell teachers, like, go under the radar a little bit. Make your gradebook look pretty much what everyone expects so that nobody is pushing back at you. But make sure the kids understand how it's different.
Sarah M. Zerwin [00:24:53]:
Like, for example, my overall percentage of my gradebook is a completed work percentage. And I just have to remind the kids, like, it's not your. Every week, every Monday, it's not your grade. It's just a completed work percentage. And it's one metric that you'll consider when you're selecting your final grade. Just do the work and try to keep that thing as close to 100 as you can, if it's not at 100, means something is missing or something is late or something. You've got to figure something out. So that's important.
Sarah M. Zerwin [00:25:21]:
Don't make it look so drastically different from what people expect. And make sure you ask administrators minimally, what do I need to have in my gradebook? My school, they pull eligibility reports from my gradebook every Friday, so I've got to have a number there for that to be, you know, to be pulled. And I really do want, like, I don't want parents to open up my gradebook and be like, what the heck is going on here? Right. You know, they see the completed work percentage. They might not even go any farther than that. And in their head, they're like, okay, that's my student's grade. And, you know, they're. I make sure that that completed work percentage, if the kid is, like, not doing the work, the percentage reflects it.
Sarah M. Zerwin [00:25:57]:
So then the parent be like, why is your grade so low in that class? And it's really like, the kid needs to get the work turned in, you know? But that point of pressure is doing what I need it to do, you know? So. So I think that piece is important, too. So communication. And then also, like, make sure that you are not doing something so drastically different with your gradebook that every, like, red flags are going up everywhere around you.
Roberto Germán [00:26:19]:
That's good. That's good. Because sometimes we go to extremes, and we could be well intentioned in our approach, but then the impact ends up being a negative one because of all the reasons you articulated. Like, people don't understand it. People are having trouble processing it. It's just such a radical shift. And so we want to be wise. We want to be discerning.
Roberto Germán [00:26:44]:
We want to be strategic in how we approach this. Wondering, how does your grading approach consider and address any cultural racial bias that that might be present in traditional assessment practices?
Sarah M. Zerwin [00:27:01]:
Yeah. And as I mentioned earlier, Cornelius Minor pointed out that granny is a place where oppression hides in school.
Roberto Germán [00:27:08]:
That's a good quote.
Sarah M. Zerwin [00:27:10]:
Yeah, absolutely. And what does that look like? And so I turned to the work of Asaw Inouye. He's a composition professor in Arizona, and he's written a lot about grading, and one of his books, anti racist writing assessment ecologies, he really, like, goes into what's wrong with writing rubrics. So this is a specific example about your question here. He talks about white language supremacy that's embedded in writing rubrics. He just argues that any rubric that we use to assess writing is couched in a dominant white language use way of looking at. Looking at writing. And so he argues that we can't escape that those rubrics will make it impossible to see all kids language use clearly.
Sarah M. Zerwin [00:28:03]:
And so it's a direct example of how there's some cultural and racial considerations embedded in those rubrics. Like, if you're not the kind of kid who grew up using the language that's embedded in the rubric, the type of language that it reflects, then the rubric's not gonna be able to see your work very clearly. And he shows a really clear example in his book about this, using the entrance or, like, the writing entrance exam for California universities. He shows an example that was presented as a failing exemplar with this exam, and he walks you through it, and he says, I don't know who wrote this, but based on some of these language patterns, I would guess that this person is not their first language, is not English. However, look at the idea development. Look at the sophistication. Look at how clear it's coming across. This person does not need remedial writing courses in college, but because of the rubric that assessed them, they're going to have to take remedial classes in college.
Sarah M. Zerwin [00:29:12]:
Really, like, concrete example of how it hurts kids. Like, for that particular person, they're looking at extra time and extra money because the rubric was unable to see their writing clearly. And so he sidesteps all of that by, like, going farther than the migrating system goes by just using labor based contract grading is what he calls it. He just says, all right, guys, so do these seven things, and you'll get a b, and do these two a little bit longer, and you'll get an a. Let's just focus in on the work. Right? So I think that that's an interesting and thought provoking approach to things that I think about quite a bit. And so rubrics, like, if you look at Maya Wilson's work, she's got two really good books on rubrics. She makes a really clear argument about ranking and sorting embedded in rubrics and grading.
Sarah M. Zerwin [00:30:00]:
And anytime we're ranking and sorting in the classroom, we're just perpetuating the systems in society that rank and sort kids anyway. And I just. I don't want to do that anymore. So, like, however, we can sidestep the ranking and the sorting for, you know, for high stakes grades, we're. We're addressing that, you know, to a small degree, we're trying to remove that same, like, perpetuating society's systemic oppression in Our Classroom as much as we can.
Roberto Germán [00:30:31]:
So how do you handle final grading?
Sarah M. Zerwin [00:30:34]:
Yeah, good question. People often wonder that, and I tell my students they're going to select their final grade. I'm very deliberate about that language. I don't want them arguing for a grade or proving that they have earned something, because that still is. That still is a power dynamic if they're trying to convince me as the one with the power. So I just simply say, you're going to select your grade. I give them a set of grade descriptions that my students and I have put together over the years, and they look at the grade descriptions and they let me know if there's any changes that they want to make to them. And then they have to see those grade descriptions a few times before they get to the end of the semester so that they know what's guiding that final grade selection.
Sarah M. Zerwin [00:31:24]:
But they look back over their growth that they've achieved towards their goals, and they write a story about the journey that they've been on. And in so doing, they just say, I'm selecting an a or a b or whatever based on this journey that I've been on. And so it's got to be transparent for the kiddos. They've got to know those great descriptions and have a chance to use them to think about their journey a few times before they get to the end there. But, and I have to tell you, like, 95% of the time, the students do such a good job, and they really, you know, they're very, very honest and they're very careful and they're very thoughtful about their progress, which I think is really, really awesome.
Roberto Germán [00:32:10]:
So, yeah, that doesn't surprise me, because if you set clear expectations and you get the students to buy in, they have voice, they have agency, they understand what's going on on, then you typically get those type of results right 95% of the time. You know, it's fine. I'm wondering about the other 5%.
Sarah M. Zerwin [00:32:36]:
Yeah, yeah. And I always find a way to throw it back at them, to give them a path to get where they want to be. And it'll usually be one of two things. Like, it'll be maybe. Maybe they didn't fully complete the work in the class and they might be saying that they're selecting an a. And I'll just point back to the grade description. I'll say, look for the grade descriptions. It says that you really should have all the work finished for the class.
Sarah M. Zerwin [00:33:04]:
Would you like to go back and finish those few things that aren't done. And then I'll put in the a. Or the other thing would be that their letter that they've written just really doesn't show the in detail their growth that they've achieved. And in that case, I'll say, I'm inviting you to look at the models of past student letters and look at the detail that they're providing. I just would really love to see more detail because I can't see your journey yet and do some revision and get it back to me. And then once in a while I get to say to kids, you know, based on what you've written here, I actually think that the a captures it better than a b or a c or something. And I'll say, do you mind if I put in that the a instead, that those are my favorites. I love it when I get to do that.
Roberto Germán [00:33:53]:
Yes. Yes. I'm guessing you get zero, zero rejection from students when you ask them that question.
Sarah M. Zerwin [00:34:01]:
Yeah, sure.
Roberto Germán [00:34:02]:
What do you think about the future of grading and assessment in education in our country? Like, where do you see it going, especially with this focus that we've been discussing of student agency and equity? Do you think it's moving in that direction?
Sarah M. Zerwin [00:34:21]:
I've been thinking about this question, and, I mean, there's places where I'm hopeful and then places where I'm sort of cynical about all this. If you look at, at least in my state, the push for mandated testing has backed off quite a bit to something that was really taking over so much time in Our Classrooms with our mandated state testing to something that is much more reasonable that we have now. And so that to me is a move that is helpful. And I'm just talking about my own state, Colorado, with that. But I think that the push for accurate evaluative grades from teachers comes from systems wanting to have some birds eye view of how everybody is doing, to do that ranking and sorting that systems like to do. Right. And so I think that we can, and I don't know that that need is ever going to go away. So I think that we can push back at it, though, to be like, you know, classroom teacher is just one, one piece of a bigger, wider assessment system.
Sarah M. Zerwin [00:35:23]:
And there are other pieces of the system that do evaluation towards standards like those state tests and such. I'm not sure that we need to do it as well. Like, we can just keep pushing back at that. But then on the other hand, like, I just found out about a high school in San Jose, California, a new high school opening up like fully on like a gradeless approach, you know, and every time I get, like, a school administrator getting in touch with me, wanting, you know, more information about the pointless approach or inviting me to come and work with their, their teachers, I get excited because, you know, if there are administrators who are, who are trying to push on this, the Colorado Department of Education asked me to come and do a brief, like, zoom thing with a group of principals across the state. I was like, wait, I. Do you. Are you sure? Do you know what I mean?
Roberto Germán [00:36:12]:
Did you read my book?
Sarah M. Zerwin [00:36:13]:
Yeah. Do you actually know what I advocate for? Are you sure you want me to do my presentation that pushes and thinking about grading? They're like, yeah. And afterwards, when all the principals logged off, I said to this guy's like, I'm surprised you. I was surprised you got in touch with me. And he's like, yeah, I might get in trouble, but I just wanted to. So I get hopeful when I see those sorts of things. But I'm still like, I don't know. It's such a big system, education in America, and there's so many people who are so, like, just focused on comparing across the country.
Sarah M. Zerwin [00:36:50]:
I don't know.
Roberto Germán [00:36:51]:
The machine's hard to buck, but we gotta have folks out there that are pushing. We gotta have resources available to teachers so that at least they have something tangible to guide them and they could try it on. And ultimately, when you see the results, you know, then it's. It's hard to pivot back.
Sarah M. Zerwin [00:37:14]:
Right.
Roberto Germán [00:37:15]:
And I think a lot of people, if they're really honest with themselves, still conclude that our traditional grading system is whack.
Sarah M. Zerwin [00:37:25]:
Thank you.
Roberto Germán [00:37:26]:
Revision. So I'm grateful for the work that you're doing and continue to do and step aside. Hopefully, we're going to have a lot of folks stepping aside from the traditional approach, but let's keep a sense of hopefulness here. What's the message of encouragement that you want to share with our audience?
Sarah M. Zerwin [00:37:46]:
Yeah. Thank you. I've been thinking all summer about this for me, just for myself. Like, as I come into the new school year, like, what am I going to focus on? I am going to focus on the parts of the job that bring me the most joy. Like, I've got it all sort of figured out. Like, it's working with my students, it's working with my trusted colleagues, and it's planning stuff for my classroom. That's what brings me the most joy. That's where I'm going to focus my efforts.
Sarah M. Zerwin [00:38:08]:
And then there's other stuff I have to do, like answering emails and going to meetings and, like, that kind of stuff, I'm going to do it, but I'm going to focus my efforts on the stuff that brings joy. So I guess I encourage people, like, remember, there's so much joy about our jobs, working with kids in classrooms. Like, I'm the luckiest person in the world, that I get to laugh with teenagers all day long, every day. They're so great. Like, I just want to focus on that, that joyful piece as much as I possibly can. And I encourage other people to do that, too.
Roberto Germán [00:38:37]:
Thank you. Yeah. Thanks for sharing that. Maintain perspective, folks. So can't let you go without asking you, if you had the opportunity to have lunch with anybody that are alive, who would it be and why?
Sarah M. Zerwin [00:38:52]:
Well, there's, for me, there's always Toni Morrison. Always. I may not be able to speak in her presence, but still.
Roberto Germán [00:39:00]:
And why? Why Toni Morrison?
Sarah M. Zerwin [00:39:03]:
Well, I just, I love her work. Her books are just mind blowing to me. So. And, yeah, I just would love to talk to her and just see what words she might have for me. And then also my dad, alasm, eight and a half years ago. And I just would love to be able to check.
Roberto Germán [00:39:23]:
Yes, yes, yes. Lost my father two and a half years ago.
Sarah M. Zerwin [00:39:27]:
I'm sorry.
Roberto Germán [00:39:28]:
And so, so I understand and I don't want to be able to check in. Also, Sarah, you mentioned earlier that you have resources available on Saram zerwin.com. we want to make sure folks go there, utilize these resources, people. All right. We have no excuses. There's folks like Sarah who are out here doing it. All right. Giving you the stuff that you need to step aside.
Roberto Germán [00:39:58]:
Is there anywhere else that folks should be checking for your work?
Sarah M. Zerwin [00:40:01]:
Yeah. Thank you. I'm on LinkedIn, trying to lean into LinkedIn a little bit. And there's some other, I'm seeing other teachers that I really like to follow that are starting to do some work there. So that's exciting. I am also on Instagram. I don't go there terribly much. It's mostly just to kind of keep tabs on my kiddo who's in college, see what she's up to, and then the contact form on my website.
Sarah M. Zerwin [00:40:25]:
If you just google Sarah Zerwin, my website should come up. It's like sarahmzerwin.com, sarahmzerwin.com dot net.org, comma. All of those point to the same place. So there's a contact form on my website and it generates an immediate email to me. And I am happy to chat with people about any of this.
Roberto Germán [00:40:42]:
Lastly, Sarah, do we have an anticipated date for your book?
Sarah M. Zerwin [00:40:47]:
So step aside. Should be out this winter. If you went to it's being published by Stenhouse through Routledge. So if you went to the Stenhouse website and saw and googled or like put and searched for me, you'll see a publication date of like December 9 or something. But my editor tells me that's just sort of a general target. It'll be out this winter sometime, so.
Roberto Germán [00:41:07]:
Right.
Sarah M. Zerwin [00:41:08]:
Very excited, though you should be. Yeah, I'm excited.
Roberto Germán [00:41:12]:
So you should be. Well, listen, once it's out, you're welcome to come back on a platform and we could dig in. More concretely, I believe that this interview you offered nuggets that folks could really take not just to reflect on, but also to apply. And if they really want to apply to stuff immediately, then they should go to sarahmzerwin.com. Thanks for being here. It was a pleasure. I learned a lot of, and I'm looking forward to learning even more as I continue to challenge myself in terms of how I view grading, how I understand grading and assessment, and where it is that there's room for me to continue to step aside and involve as a practitioner.
Sarah M. Zerwin [00:41:54]:
Thank you, Roberto. I've really enjoyed the conversation and I really appreciate the opportunity.
Roberto Germán [00:41:59]:
All right, take care. As always, your engagement in Our Classroom is greatly appreciated. Be sure to subscribe, rate the show, and write a review. Finally, for resources to help you understand the intersection of race bias, education and society, go to multiculturalclassroom.com. peace and love from your host, Roberto Germán.
