Roberto Germán [00:00:01]:
Welcome to Our Classroom. In this space, we talk about education, which is inclusive of, but not limited to, what happens in schools. Education is taking place whenever and wherever we are willing to learn. I am your host, Robelto Germán, and Our Classroom is officially in session. Welcome back to Our Classroom. Today I am joined by doctor Sonja Cherry-Paul, the founder of Red Clay Educators, co director of the Institute for Racial Equity and Literacy, co-director of the Teach Black History All Year Institute, and executive director and host of the Black Creator Series. She is an educator with more than 20 years of classroom experience who has written several books that support reading and writing instruction and has adapted the number one New York Times bestseller, Stamped (For Kids). Sonja leads professional development for schools and organizations in equity and anti racism, and we are fortunate to have you here.
Roberto Germán [00:01:18]:
She can be followed as sonjacherrypaul.com. welcome, welcome, Sonja. Thank you for being here.
Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul [00:01:25]:
Thank you so much, Roberto. I'm so, so happy to be here with you.
Roberto Germán [00:01:30]:
Well, it's my pleasure. You know, you've been on the platform before, but not in person. I'm not sure if you're aware of that.
Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul [00:01:38]:
Um, say more about that.
Roberto Germán [00:01:41]:
So I don't know how long it's been. Maybe it's been a year and a half, maybe two years. Probably two years at this point. But you and Lorena did an Instagram live, and I repurposed that live for the podcast because it was such a fruitful conversation. I'm like, you know what? I think the podcast audience would benefit from this. Let me repurpose that Instagram live. I don't know if you remember. I forgot what the topic was.
Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul [00:02:08]:
I remember we were talking about. We were talking about Textured Teaching. It was just about to come out and. Or it was just out, and Lorena invited me to be in conversation with her, and I loved that conversation so much. So I'm so glad that you repurposed it.
Roberto Germán [00:02:28]:
Well, I'm grateful for the opportunity to talk to you and learn from you because your new book, Anti Racist Reading Revolution, is out, A Framework for Teaching Beyond Representation Toward Liberation. And I've been digging in a bit, eager for other folks to dig in. I love the layout, love all the lessons within the book, ready for teachers to implement. I love the fact that each of those lessons have a QR code that folks can scan to obtain more content, more information. So many resources in here. This is richest, and we could talk about a number of different things. We can create a whole series out of this. And I was tempted to, but I had to narrow my focus so I want to dig into chapter five.
Roberto Germán [00:03:28]:
This whole conversation is going to be centered around chapter five in your book, which is titled Help Students Acquire Racial Literacy. And at the bottom of the page, there is this following quote, part of the perennial family, dandelions survive the winter and flower in spring, returning again and again, year after year. They are notoriously challenging to remove. Can you explain the connection between the title of this chapter in the quote is. It caught my attention. You know, I see the title, I see the quote at the bottom, and I'm like, huh, interesting. So I love for you. I have my own interpretation, but I love for you to elaborate.
Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul [00:04:19]:
Yeah, thank you. Thank you for noticing that. I think when readers take a look at each of my chapters, they'll learn a little bit about dandelions right from the start. There's always a little opening where I'm planting a seed, if you will. I'm using that term intentionally about dandelions that I'm hoping they will learn from and connect to the work of anti racism. When I was writing Anti Racist Reading Revolution, I knew I needed a metaphor to kind of hold all of the moving parts together. The emerging and evolving understandings about anti racism, characteristics of anti racism, which racial literacy I assert is one critical lenses that I provide to support antiracist teaching and reading. I wanted something that could just kind of hold all this together.
Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul [00:05:19]:
And so I was talking to my good friend, who, you know, Colleen Cruz. She's an author and educator and one of my great thought partners. And I was trying to explain this to her, and I said, I have all these moving parts. How do I contain it? And she was the one who suggested that I come up with a symbol that could bring everything together. And she said, Sonja, that symbol needs to be organic in order to represent the living, fluid work of anti racism that you're talking about, that you're describing. And so, honestly, Roberto, as a result of a lot of trial and trash, as I like to call the work of a writer, right, we're trying things and we're trashing things, and eventually something sticks, right? And I was looking out my window one spring morning and noticed dandelions across the lawn. And it hit me that dandelions could be that organic symbol I was looking for. And so I started to research a lot about the anatomy of dandelions.
Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul [00:06:28]:
I learned about their parts. I learned about their power and their purpose. They do not rely on bees and butterflies to be pollinated. A gust of wind can carry their seeds far and wide. They are often the first source of food for pollinators. Without dandelions, bees and butterflies and beetles and other organisms wouldn't have the energy that they need to do their work, work in the environment to pollinate the flowers, to produce that honey. Dandelions have these long tap roots that extend way down deep into the earth, and they transport nutrients to many organisms that wouldn't ordinarily have access or otherwise have access to those nutrients. And those long tap roots are what makes dandelions notoriously difficult to remove.
Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul [00:07:35]:
Dandelions have been used by humans for thousands of years for medicinal and cooking purposes. So it's pretty undeniable that dandelions are significant. They nurture, sustain, and transform lives and the environment. And so to answer your question, this is a very long way to answer your question. The connection I'm hoping to make between the title of chapter five, help students acquire racial literacy and dandelions is exactly that. When we teach in ways that help students to acquire and develop racial literacy skills, they'll have access to tools that nurture, sustain and transform their lives and the environment. And once they have these tools, they're not going to look around the world and their lives exactly the same way again. Once their consciousness has been raised, they'll never be unaware again.
Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul [00:08:46]:
It will be difficult to remove. Right. Those skills. Like the work of dandelions, racial literacy is life changing work.
Roberto Germán [00:08:57]:
Wow. I wasn't ready for that response. I didn't know I was going to come into this interview and have a whole blossoming lesson on dandelions. Yeah, I learned more about dandelions in your short response than I've probably ever known in my whole life.
Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul [00:09:21]:
Amazing.
Roberto Germán [00:09:22]:
And the connection there, that is a metaphor for this work of anti racism. It's fascinating to me. It's, I was curious, but now I'm fascinated because of the context that you just provided. Right. All those details about how dandelions function and how they grow and what they need and what they don't need and making that connection to the learners.
Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul [00:10:05]:
I like a good metaphor, Roberto. I mean, I feel like the most simple, ordinary things that are right around us, when they can become a metaphor for something that might seem complex or, you know, abstract, that's always the best metaphor, right? And if you've read stamp for kids, you know, I use rope, a very ordinary, common thing for kids. And I've used that as a metaphor to really bring young readers across the book. And I'm doing that with dandelions. We overlook dandelions, but they're ubiquitous in nature. And I'm hoping that I can bring my readers along in the Anti Racist Reading Revolution to more deeply understand the work of anti racism by also learning about dandelions.
Roberto Germán [00:10:54]:
Absolutely. And you definitely will have me looking at dandelions in a different way now. I didn't have that type of appreciation for them before, and now when I see dandelions, you know, I'm going to think of this breakdown that you get. I'm going to think about the anti racism work. I'm going to think about deliberation work. And you mentioned tools, right? So we're equipping learners where we're helping them to expand their toolbox. We're helping them to think critically. And so how does racial literacy make it possible for students to analyze the connection between past and contemporary issues?
Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul [00:11:39]:
Well, when young people, when they have opportunities to look at and discuss past and present issues through the lens of race, what that does is it makes it possible for them to start to see patterns of inequity. And as they begin to analyze these patterns, they will understand ways that social factors, political factors, economic factors, legal factors, and the intersection between those factors. And as well as other identity markers, the intersection of other identity markers like gender and language and LGBTQIA plus identities, religion, disability, et cetera, they'll start to see the ways all of this impacts people's lives. They'll also be able to understand ways Whiteness and White supremacy drive policies and practices and impact the experiences of those who have been marginalized and minoritized in the United States. So, for example, when students are learning about and thinking about the Black Lives Matter movement, right, and how and when it emerged, racial literacy is what helps young people understand that this is a connection and a continuation of the work of the past, of the work of the Black Panther Party movement, of the work of the Black Civil Rights Movement, of the past. Right. When young people discuss book banning and censorship that just came back from American Library Association Annual Conference. So when young people are having conversations about what's happening right now with book banning and book censorship that's dominating their lives, racial literacy helps them to connect that back to the ways Black people who were enslaved were denied access to books and access to reading.
Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul [00:14:10]:
When young people learn about colonization and segregation, this isn't just something to be understood as a past condition. Racial literacy can help students look around at their local, national, and global environment and communities and say, hey, this is still happening. It's happening right now.
Roberto Germán [00:14:35]:
So we're equipping the kids to be able to put on the lens to see what's happening currently, but also make connections with what's happening, with what has happened in the past, in order to expand their perspective further, inform them, and then essentially build them up so they can also become advocates for change. Yeah, I wanna. I wanna. Because I know part of how you do this in the text and in general is by offering people content to dig into and then challenging them to do some reflection, to take some time to consider, to write, to make their own connections, to work through their biases, to identify. Right. You used the term patterns when you started responding to this question. And so I want to take a moment to ask you to reflect on your own, one of your own reflection questions. What is gained when narratives are widened and sharpened to reveal truthful representations of people and events? And what are three ways educators can reinforce this? Right.
Roberto Germán [00:16:03]:
Sticking with the notion of expanding the toolbox for our learners.
Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul [00:16:08]:
Yeah, well, you know, as a former classroom teacher, you know, I taught grades five, six and seven for 20 years, and I think one of the middle school mobile. Yes, we are middle school teachers. We are a special breed.
Roberto Germán [00:16:28]:
That's right.
Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul [00:16:32]:
You know, just thinking about my work in the classroom and my time with children in that way, I think one of the most important things that's gained when we widen and sharpen truthful representations of people and events is that children's questions are addressed, not always answered, but addressed. I always remember my students wanting to, you know, to know how this happened, whatever the. This is at that particular time. You know, how did this happen? They would ask, how did we get here? You know, whenever we discussed, you know, issues around inequity. When did this start? How did this start? Whether it was enslavement or land theft and genocide of native peoples, my students, who were predominantly White students, wanted to know why? Because their textbooks were not addressing the why. They were just presenting events like they weren't a big deal at all. Like it was just how things were or are. And of course, many, you know, events, issues, people were raised altogether.
Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul [00:17:54]:
But when we widen our scope and we learn about, when we learn from perspectives or through perspectives that are not just White, eurocentric perspectives, then students gain that access to truthful representations of people and communities and their lives. They gain access to the full humanity of those who are too often dehumanized in education. And I think there's a lot of ways that educators can accomplish this. You asked for three. So let's see if I get there. I think one way which I try to model again and again an Anti Racist Reading Revolution. One way to accomplish this is to seek out as many texts as possible by own voice creators. I think the research that the Cooperative Children's Book Center, based out of the University of Wisconsin that they've been doing is readily available, and it is rich data.
Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul [00:19:03]:
They've been doing this for several years, and they show us exactly what happens when I people of color are denied opportunities to write and to illustrate their own stories rather than being, and are erased from their own narratives. So we see how historically this has happened. And kids get these fractured versions of truths and misrepresentations and distortions of people and who they really are. And this is continuing, right? So when Black and Brown and indigenous creators have the opportunity to tell their own stories, their experiences, their histories, this is often done with a greater accuracy, nuance, and care. Right. About their communities. So that's one important way that educators can widen and broaden the scope. I think a second way goes back to what I was saying about kids having questions.
Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul [00:20:13]:
We can encourage students to ask questions. We can think about the intersection of critical literacy and racial literacy. That's a powerful one. Right. We can teach students that every text is imbued with power. And in that way, they won't be the kind of readers where a text just washes over them. Instead, they'll start to ask questions like, who wrote this text? And what are their motivations? How are people positioned in a text whose perspectives are included and whose aren't? And why? Right. And those questions, we don't always have clear, easy answers to those questions, but it is the asking of the questions that is the consciousness raising that helps kids develop the skills of racial literacy and anti racism.
Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul [00:21:09]:
That's two. I also think that educators can encourage, and should encourage kids to read in community, and they have to cultivate those reading communities in their classrooms, rather than students always reading in isolation. When they're reading in communities, they have opportunities to grapple with ideas and texts with their peers, to try out some ideas and to get feedback. And now we need educators to cultivate spaces where this can happen and bravely and safely for children, where they can put their racial literacy skills in action through conversations that are facilitated by anti racist educators. So I think that would be a third way.
Roberto Germán [00:22:10]:
Yeah, that's good. I like the reading, and community is even what I do from the podcasting perspective. All right. And I'll just stick to what we were discussing earlier with the dandelions that, that breakdown that you gave me on the dandelions that, you know, I wasn't aware of. I didn't know. I wasn't making that connection to anti racism. And so I could do the podcast on my own, right? Just create content and go and talk about it and not interview anybody. But one of the reasons I mainly maintain an interview style podcast is because I get the opportunity to learn from each and every guest that I have on the platform to hear these different perspectives, to consider things that I had not considered before or for certain things to be reinforced.
Roberto Germán [00:23:04]:
For example, in your book, you mentioned how your Black history, your history was not taught in your schools growing up, that you receive that history from your family. And then when you went on to college, that's when you. You furthered your knowledge. And that really resonated with me because I had a similar experience. I went to college, and I was like, oh, wait, now I'm reading things that really interest me. I'm reading things. Reading the Autobiography of Malcolm X, right? And I'm like, oh, wait, I'm definitely did not teach this in my schools.
Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul [00:23:48]:
That was the book for me.
Roberto Germán [00:23:50]:
Okay. And that was one of the ones for Lorena, also.
Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul [00:23:54]:
That was the book when I got to college. I don't even know how I got that book in my hands. I don't. I can't remember that. All I can remember is having it, reading it, not being able to put it down. I was walking and reading that book. I can't tell you how many times I almost fell. You know, it.
Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul [00:24:14]:
It just. It just cracked me wide open.
Roberto Germán [00:24:18]:
Listen, I read. I got to college, read about Frederick Douglass. That really rocked me. August Wilson's the Piano Lesson. Like, I was just exposed to all these different texts and authors. I'm like, yo, where they been? Where they been? My whole experience.
Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul [00:24:36]:
Yep.
Roberto Germán [00:24:37]:
And so, you know, you said that, and that really connected with me. And so I really want people to embrace that idea of reading in community that you shared along with the other two strategies that you offered, because there's work for us to do, but that does not mean that we have to do it alone. Right? This doesn't have to be something in which we're operating in isolation. In fact. Well, I do think there. There is time that we need to reflect alone and, you know, process, but it's also beneficial for us to be in community, hear from others, be informed, learn, push each other, and grow together.
Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul [00:25:30]:
Yeah. I mean, our growth does not happen in a vacuum. It just doesn't. And change doesn't happen by one individual. And we can just look back at history and see that there are those who try to tell us that there are these lone heroes who magically, extraordinarily, single handedly did all this work. But again, when we have racial literacy, we can think about the why of that kind of position of peoples. And also it helps us recognize that we need to look ourselves at this history and really see that, no, it was in community. It was in collaboration.
Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul [00:26:14]:
And that is what brings about change.
Roberto Germán [00:26:17]:
Well, here's another quote that caught my attention. Once their roots are firmly established in the landscape, dandelions are difficult to destroy. They take their rightful place in the environment and belong. Please elaborate on this notion.
Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul [00:26:36]:
Yeah, so, yeah, again, you're going to get a lot of dandelion thoughts and ideas across this book that I'm using intentionally to try in hopes of connecting the ideas of each chapter to anti racist teaching. So when the skills of racial literacy and anti racism are taught and nurtured like dandelions, they become firmly established, they become bone deep, and young people will apply these skills in all aspects of their lives. And I know this from working with children everywhere.
Roberto Germán [00:27:18]:
So the skills are transferable.
Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul [00:27:20]:
They are transferable. So when I was adapting. I'll tell a little story about transfer. When I was adapting stamp for kids, before the book was published, I insisted that the publisher allow me to send a draft to a few young readers for their feedback. I didn't want a book coming out for kids without hearing from them. Right. About this book, I sent a manuscript to three young readers who read, and they met with me as often as they wanted to tell me what they were thinking, what they were wrestling with, ways I could make the adaptation better. And one reader's name is Dalia.
Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul [00:28:02]:
She was a fourth grader at the time. And for those who aren't aware, stamped for kids traces the history of race and racism in the United States and help students to identify the ideas, policies, laws, and practices that are steeped in anti Blackness, as well as recognize anti racist ideas and actions. So Dalia, of course, read every page of the book. We met often. I met the most with her. And then the book came out. And in her classroom one day, she was applying the language and tools to an assignment when her teacher assigned her a handout about the early history of the southwest. One of the questions was, why did the Spanish something like, why did the Spanish want to teach the Native Americans christianity? And Dalia wrote on her paper that they wanted the Native Americans to be like them, that they wanted power.
Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul [00:29:08]:
And then in all capital letters, she wrote, this is assimilationist. Thinking, I don't know if her fourth grade teacher was ready for Dalia, but Dalia was showing up as a dandelion with skills that are firmly planted in her, that she was ready to apply and felt strong enough to do so. And that, yeah, these skills belong in everything that I'm doing and in all aspects of my life.
Roberto Germán [00:29:42]:
Thank you. Thank you for offering that example. And it's good for folks to hear and when we're teaching our young learners to acquire racial literacy, that it's not solely for the, for the aim to discuss race or think about race, but also, and probably more importantly, for them to have the skills that they need to be able to apply it to all the different areas of their lives. You had used the term, I don't know if it was the term awakening or liberation, but that was the idea, that once they're exposed to this, they see things differently. And so they're able to navigate through things differently and think a little bit deeper and challenge, especially through inquiry, which sometimes in our educational spaces, we don't always encourage.
Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul [00:30:42]:
No. And we specifically don't encourage in educational spaces, students to think about race, to think through the lens of race, that is often discouraged. So what I'm arguing is what happens, and not just me, but all of the scholars, you know, who, and researchers and activists who have done so much work around this. But what happens when we give kids the skills and help them to develop those skills to do exactly that? How does that change how they learn and what they come to understand and what they come to know? I think it changes a lot and is the key to transforming society to be one that is more racially just.
Roberto Germán [00:31:34]:
Well, one person who does do that is doctor Yolanda Sili Ruiz. So from one doctor to another, Celie Ruiz emphasizes the importance of racial literacy in education, particularly the ability to interrupt racism and inequality at personal and systemic levels. How can educators practically implement this approach in their classrooms to foster an anti racist stance among students?
Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul [00:32:08]:
So, first of all, thank you so much for uplifting my sister, my mentor, my friend, my former professor, Dr. Yolanda Sealy-Ruiz, who, if you don't have Anti Racist Reading Revolution, she wrote the foreword to my book, which is a masterclass in and of itself. I am incredibly honored by that. And it is just a joy to be in community with her in my life. And so one of the things that I have, many things that I've learned from her is reflection is just key. It is so key. It is so important to interrupting racism at the personal level. And I think that educators can invite students to reflect in a few ways. One way is, you know, they can think they can do this reflection individually in.
Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul [00:33:12]:
In their notebooks. Right. Physically or digital notebooks, understanding that some things students write are just for them to further interrogate on their own. Right. Not everything a student produces should be shared.
Roberto Germán [00:33:31]:
So we need to be discerning about what it is the students are sharing with us and how it is that we utilize that information or not. Right. Sometimes the utilization is simply to read what you've reflected on, not necessarily to share it out. So, yes, thank you for naming that.
Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul [00:33:50]:
Yeah, we have to name that, because if not, then we're going to cause harm and trauma in that classroom. So one thing I always say to young people is, you know, take a look at what you've written in your notebook. Think about what of what you've written could be shared with a thought partner, what is going to stay right in your notebook for further reflection and interrogation, and what from your notebook might work for you to share in a racial affinity space. Right. Because the most important thing that educators need to do is protect the students who were most impacted by racism, and that's your BIPOC students. And so we can explain that to all students. Right. So we can let some things live inside of our notebooks for further interrogation.
Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul [00:34:46]:
Students can be invited to consider what they've come to know about people of color. And I'm talking about BIPOC students as well as we, you know, as all human beings are taking in messages from society and media that are racist. Right. So we can ask, what has facilitated that learning? How might this be wrong. Right. And cause harm? How has it caused harm, these ideas and beliefs? And then I think you were asking about systemic, the systemic level. And I think interrupting racism at that level really involves students understanding racism as more than just an isolated incident of hate.
Roberto Germán [00:35:42]:
So beyond the interpersonal experiences.
Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul [00:35:47]:
Yeah, those social slights, microaggressions, racist statements. So one way that educators can do that work is to invite students to look at a particular institution, whether it's healthcare or policing or education or housing, look at the racial data around that institution that tells us how people fair. Right. And we can see the disproportionality when we do that. We can look at help students identify policies and laws that undergird a particular institution and how they impact Black and Brown people. And in these ways, students begin to understand racism as pervasive and who are.
Roberto Germán [00:36:41]:
The decision makers behind those policies.
Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul [00:36:44]:
That's right. How do these policies get made?
Roberto Germán [00:36:48]:
Whose voices are represented? Whose voices are not represented?
Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul [00:36:52]:
Yep. How is racism produced, reproduced, condoned, perpetuated? And mostly how is it resulting in the continued oppression of people of color? Then we can start to get to dismantling. Right. But first, kids have to be able to see it at work in all these different ways.
Roberto Germán [00:37:15]:
Right? What? Have you noticed that people tend to get wrong about racial literacy?
Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul [00:37:21]:
I think one of the biggest things people get wrong is they try to avoid talking about Whiteness and White supremacy. So I think there are some people who don't want to talk about racism at all, right? And then there are those who do. And among those who do, some of them believe they can do that without ever discussing Whiteness and White supremacy. And you really are not talking or teaching about race and racism. If you are unwilling to talk and teach about Whiteness and White supremacy, to try to do so is to perpetuate an idea that there's something wrong with Blackness or Brownness or it gets positioned as different. Right. We hear kids say things like, oh, it's okay to be different. That person, this is happening to them because they are different.
Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul [00:38:21]:
And who are the people who are always the ones who are different. Right. It's Black and Brown people. And so then what is being centered when this is normalized? Right. What's being centered and normalized when this is brought into a learning space and without teaching about Whiteness, without students learning about this as an ideology, as a belief that Whiteness is the norm, then everything else will be positioned as different. And then different morphs into wrong and inferior. Right. I'll give another example.
Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul [00:39:07]:
That happens all the time. Educators are teaching about, let's say, Dr. King and the time of the time I'm putting in quotes of segregation because that time is still now.
Roberto Germán [00:39:21]:
Yeah, I live in Florida. I know.
Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul [00:39:24]:
I know. You know, right. But they're teaching this, and then they're asking the question, why is this happening? And the kids are saying, oh, this is happening because the people are Black. Right. That's always a common answer. And I really need us to make that shift. Right. This is not happening because people are Black.
Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul [00:39:45]:
Or insert any other example and minoritized racial identity. It's not happening because of that. It's happening because of Whiteness, because of White supremacy. It's happening because the people in power of this particular event, institution, country, right, have racist ideas and they're using them to inflict harm and to treat people unfairly. So we have to change our language so we're not socializing children into this idea that there's a wrongness or a rightness concerned with skin color and race. We have to teach about White supremacy because racism isn't just happening because of some invisible force in the air. I think that's one of the biggest things that people get wrong about racial literacy.
Roberto Germán [00:40:40]:
Thank you. Thank you. Can you name three books that pair well with the Anti Racist Reading Revolution?
Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul [00:40:53]:
Just three? Oh, my goodness.
Roberto Germán [00:40:55]:
I know, I know. But the problem is, if I don't put some parameters around this thing, you know, the rest of this, the rest of this interview will be you shouting out every great author and colleague in our space.
Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul [00:41:09]:
That is true.
Roberto Germán [00:41:10]:
And while I want to give everybody their flowers, you know, I need them to come on the show also and talk about their books.
Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul [00:41:18]:
Okay, okay, okay, okay. I'll try. But, you know, I'm a little bit of a rule breaker.
Roberto Germán [00:41:22]:
All right. You know, one of. One of the pillars in Lorena's book textured teaching is flexibility. So I'm trying to. I'm trying to honor that.
Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul [00:41:34]:
There we go. So there we go. That's number one. Texture Teaching: A Framework for Culturally Sustaining Practices by Lorena Germán. That's one. I think my book pairs very nicely with hers. Get free by Tricia Ebarvia around Anti Bias Literacy Instruction for Stronger Readers, Writers and Thinkers. I'm going to shout out Literacy is Liberation by Dr. Kimberly Parker.
Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul [00:42:10]:
Working Toward Justice Through Culturally Relevant Teaching. That's three. Also, Gholdy Muhammad. Dr. Gholdy Muhammad.
Roberto Germán [00:42:21]:
You were going to push.
Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul [00:42:22]:
You were going to push Cultivating Genius and Unearthing Joy. And then I have to go to the goat. The Dream Keepers, Dr. Gloria Ladson-Billings. I'll stop there.
Roberto Germán [00:42:34]:
That's a great lineup. That's a great lineup. I'm not mad that you went outside of the parameters here, Sonja. If you had the opportunity to eat lunch with anybody, dead or alive, who would it be and why?
Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul [00:42:51]:
Okay, and I have to just pick one.
Roberto Germán [00:42:55]:
Sonja. Sonja.
Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul [00:42:57]:
Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay.
Roberto Germán [00:42:59]:
You tested me.
Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul [00:43:00]:
Okay. I'm gonna go with Toni Morrison, who comes up also a lot in my book. I mean, I feel like I get to be in her presence whenever I read and revisit her work. But to have lunch with her would be super incredible. She's someone who, you know, I mean, honestly, she's accomplished all the things, right, as a writer, as an editor, as a publisher, as an anti racist thinker, as a mother. And I feel like being a Black woman has always been one of the most difficult things to be. And I'd like to ask her, how do you battle? How did she battle back the constant barrage of negativity that's hurled at Black women, you know, and if she ever struggled with parts of her identity and how she loves to learn, learned to love herself so completely and fully, I'd like to ask.
Roberto Germán [00:44:02]:
Yeah, that's a great pick. You know, and even as I hear you process what the experience would be like and things that you will want to ask, I'm encouraged, because this. This work is challenging. It could be difficult and sometimes could be a little bit discouraging, at least for me. You know, there's moments where I'm just like, oh, my goodness. Like, I just. I need a break. I don't want to respond to another negative comment or have to explain this thing once again or sometimes responding to people that you're like, what? You're not even coming into this conversation, leading with curiosity, you know, like, you're just in attack mode, and that can be draining.
Roberto Germán [00:44:46]:
And yet we had these great examples, such as Toni Morrison, who laid down the foundation, and there was a path for us to follow, and they went through their own struggles. And so hearing you name Toni Morrison, hearing you name the things that Toni Morrison accomplished or things you want to ask, definitely encourages me.
Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul [00:45:13]:
Yeah.
Roberto Germán [00:45:15]:
What's your message of encouragement for the audience?
Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul [00:45:22]:
Well, I think I just mentioned, I just came back from American Library Association, where I facilitated a conversation with Black creators. And there were obviously a lot of librarians in the room who really care about the book banning and censorship that is impacting their work and their values and their lives. And I offered some thoughts that I think I'll share here. Again, I firmly believe that no matter the circumstance, if we study the actions of Black people across the history of this country who have resisted, who are the very definition of resilience, who have always led the revolution, we'll find answers that we can use to guide us today to keep us on the path toward liberation. I won't say, do not despair or feel fear or horror, because all of those feelings are valid, particularly right now, in this moment, nationally and globally. I will say that it's important for us to continue to surround ourselves with people like, I get to be here with you and to be in community with Lorena, people who can help us turn those feelings into fuel, and to know that when we put that fuel into action, they may seem small, but they are mighty and they matter.
Roberto Germán [00:47:05]:
Thank you. Thank you, folks. Sonja's book is available now. Again, the Anti Racist Reading Revolution: A Framework for Teaching Beyond Representation Toward Liberation. Just a wonderful text full of resources and content even beyond the actual physical text lessons that are ready for you to apply, questions for you to reflect on. So much going on here. And I still need a lot of time to dig through this. But I want to thank you for this resource that you have offered us and encourage you to continue to make an impact in our world through your writing, through your teaching, through your modeling.
Roberto Germán [00:48:03]:
I'm enthused by the work that you're doing, and I appreciate being a colleague in this space with you, a collaborator in this space with you. So thank you. For folks that want to learn more about your work or connect with you, where can they follow you?
Dr. Sonja Cherry-Paul [00:48:22]:
Thank you, Roberto. Thank you so much. And yes, folks can follow me at sonjacherrypaul without the hyphen and the last name on Instagram, on X, on Threads, and on LinkedIn. And they can visit my website, sonjacherrypaul.com. There will be in the next couple of weeks an educator's guide, a study guide to support educators with Anti Racist Reading Revolution. So they can be on the lookout for that announcement in all of those places.
Roberto Germán [00:48:55]:
So, yeah, thanks for your time. It's been wonderful to hear from you, to learn from you again. Dandelions, I'm going to have that in my mind now. I'm going to walk out there and start looking for dandelions, and then I'm going to go back to your book, dig deeper, and see some of the connections and profound thinking that you have offered us with this metaphor. Wonderful work, Sonja. Thank you. Thank you. Once again, keep it up.
Roberto Germán [00:49:27]:
As always, your engagement in Our Classroom is greatly appreciated. Be sure to subscribe, rate the show, and write a review. Finally, for research sources to help you understand the intersection of race, bias, education, and society, go to multiculturalclassroom.com. peace and love from your host, Roberto Germánde.
