Roberto Germán [00:00:01]:
Welcome to Our Classroom. In this space we talk about education, which is inclusive of but not limited to what happens in schools. Education is taking place whenever and wherever we are willing to learn. I am your host Roberto Germán and Our Classroom is officially in session. Welcome back to Our Classroom. Today I am joined by Dr. Roger A. Gerard, the owner of Sloan and Gerard Consulting, a private consulting practice serving executive and boards in strategic planning, operational planning, executive coaching, and management development. He also specializes in the process in process improvement and the use of lean methodologies in bringing about significant and measurable organizational improvement.
Roberto Germán [00:00:58]:
Dr. Gerard is the author of owning the Room leading with mind, heart and spirit to make extraordinary choices in a demanding world and the forthcoming title lead with purpose. I like that. Reignite passion and engagement for professionals in crisis. He also authored on demand, Revolutionizing Healthcare to save lives and transform the industry. Welcome Dr. Gerard.
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:01:28]:
Thank you Roberto. I appreciate being part of this podcast with you.
Roberto Germán [00:01:34]:
Yeah, it's good to have you here. And last episode I talked about mental health a bit and you know, it was focused on educators. But I think there's something we could build off, especially with some of the content that you discuss in your book. And I'm interested to start by having you explain what you mean by the codification of education professionals and how this concept applies in the modern educational landscape.
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:02:08]:
Yeah, that's a great starting question for this. I am observing in my work with many different kinds of professionals in different industries. A movement toward treating professionals is commodities. That means we have to talk about what a commodity is. In economics, a commodity is a basic material. It's like a metal, different metals used to produce products. It's a basic material. In farming, commodities are like eggs and carrots and green peppers and you can't brand this stuff very easily because it's all interchangeable.
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:02:51]:
You might have different levels of quality. Professionals are a different breed. Professionals come to their work because they want to make a difference in the world. Professionals go to their undergrad work, get their knowledge and their skills, skilling in their training, and then they come to the workplace and they expect with wide eyes to make a big difference in the people that are there to serve. That's what professionals do. And unfortunately in our society we're moving toward a great deal of standardization, we're moving toward a great deal of systemization. We're using technology to create limits and boundaries around the autonomy of our professionals. We're using a lot of different mechanisms to say you get to teach this, you don't get to teach that, and as this is happening in our society, teachers are feeling more and more constrained to follow the script and just do what they're being told to do on a day in, day out basis.
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:04:01]:
And that's unfortunate because we're losing the human spirit in those professions. Teaching is one of those professions. I spent 23 of my years as the chief learning officer for Thedacare. They wanted me to be the chief teaching officer, and I said, no, I'm not going to teach. I'm going to help people learn. And as we put together our mechanisms for helping nurses and physicians and other people learn what they needed to learn in their practice of their professions, we created mechanisms where the instructors and the faculty had a lot of autonomy in helping these people learn how to do these things. I'm seeing in the education world a great deal of constraint as opposed to a great deal of freedom. Absolutely forward.
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:04:53]:
So that's the kind of, that's what I'm meaning by commodification. What's happening is teachers are being turned into basic commodities and told to do this, not that. And instead of allowing them to be co authors in the work that they're doing.
Roberto Germán [00:05:09]:
No, that's a good point. And things are definitely standardized as it relates to the educational space. And as far as teachers being co authors or co authoring, the whole process, the learning process, yeah. Unfortunately, teachers in most spaces, most school spaces, are not invited to co construct. Right. They're simply told what to do. Like, you know, this is what it is. We need you to teach this way.
Roberto Germán [00:05:36]:
We need the kids to, you know, to get these scores on the state test. And we do see a lot of the freedom and creativity being robbed, which in turn, for many, I think, robs them of their joy.
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:05:51]:
Exactly right. Their joy is. Comes with a creative process. Their joy comes with injecting their own spirit into the work they're doing every day. And when they can't do that, it starts creating the framework for burnout. It starts creating the construct that they're working in. There's walls, there's boundaries, and they can't go through those boundaries. And our language betrays some of this.
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:06:20]:
We talk about human resources. We talk about human capital. We talk about people being assets. Those are all business terms. As opposed to talking about the human factor in the learning process. There is a human factor here that we can't ignore, and unfortunately, we can't also quantify it very easily either, Ray.
Roberto Germán [00:06:49]:
And that probably presents a problem, because in many circles and in many spaces, all folks want is data.
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:06:58]:
Yeah.
Roberto Germán [00:06:59]:
Quantifiable data.
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:07:01]:
How do we quantify it? And, boy, if we can quantify it, then how do we improve it and how do we make it even better? And in the meantime, go home with your spouse and tell your spouse that you want to quantify your relationship and measure that and see if you're not sleeping on the couch tonight.
Roberto Germán [00:07:18]:
I was going to say, are you trying to get me in trouble or what? Trying to live a peaceful life here at home.
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:07:24]:
Yeah.
Roberto Germán [00:07:24]:
So, so how does treating teachers in that you started to touch upon this, but how does treating teachers and other educational professionals as commodities affect their sense of professional identity and purpose? Right. We talked a little bit about them losing their joy, but how else does it affect their sense of professional identity and purpose?
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:07:44]:
Well, I had one teacher tell me she feels like a rat in a maze. I had another teacher tell me she's lost her heart. You're talking about people working within a construct where they thought they were coming into a profession, where they had a calling, where they had an ability to impact people on a very personal, intimate way with students. And they find after a few years in the profession that they can't do that anymore. I visited my daughter in Boulder, Colorado a few months ago. And on the way back, flying back to Wisconsin, I sat next to a nurse. I found out she was a nurse, and actually she was a traveling nurse coming back to Wisconsin to do some nursing. She lived in Colorado.
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:08:36]:
I got a little history on her coming out of the healthcare profession myself. And I found out she used to be a teacher. I said, well, wait a minute. You're a licensed teacher and you went into nursing, got a new license to practice nursing. How's that working for you? And actually the same factors that she was burning out in, in the teaching profession, she was finding in the nursing profession, too.
Roberto Germán [00:09:04]:
Really?
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:09:05]:
That's a big ouch. And so now she's a traveling nurse. She can work on her own schedule. She can work as much as she wants or as little as she wants, and she's put autonomy back into her life. Once you start treating people as commodities, it changes how they see themselves. If I'm going to be treated like a commodity, I'm going to act like one and I'm going to take my business where it's going to go.
Roberto Germán [00:09:33]:
That's a good point. That's a good point. And I think we, and I'm sure you have a lot of data to back this up, but I think we see this reflected in what's been happening in the workplace throughout this country.
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:09:46]:
Oh, sure. And you know, I have a lot of empathy for when I see teachers going out on strike in the different unions around the country. And what they're saying is it's not all about the money. Money matters, but it's not all about the money. It's also about working conditions. It's about safety in the educational arena. It's about a lot of things that would bring spirit back into the workplace.
Roberto Germán [00:10:14]:
Well, you mentioned spirit, but earlier you mentioned burnout. Can you elaborate on how this commodification leads to increased burnout rates among education professionals?
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:10:26]:
Sure. And we have to kind of back up one step from that. Let's talk about the shortages that are happening in education right now. The reality is that I read an article recently where more than half a million teachers in this country have left the profession in the last five years. Half a million teachers.
Roberto Germán [00:10:51]:
There's some data for you.
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:10:53]:
Right? That's data. This came out of a Forbes research study. And they're not, the new people coming in will not replace that. They will not replace that. So you now have a certain.
Roberto Germán [00:11:10]:
The years of experience, the knowledge, the relationships, culture that was built, none of it.
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:11:21]:
And you mentioned the word culture that is critically important. See, people work in an environment where they have colleagues, they have other professionals that are either feeding their spirit or detracting from their spirit. It. Once you build an environment where cynicism starts to take place, where apathy starts to take place, where people don't feel like they can do what they came there to do, that's contagious. And it affects the people around them, too. One of the things that I spend a lot of time doing in my consulting work is finding out the roots of the, the presence of cynics, apathetics and naysayers. That's something I talk a lot about with leadership. If you have them, there's a reason for it.
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:12:11]:
And it might be leadership is the reason for it. People don't choose to be cynical in a moment. They choose to be cynical over time. When the power of cynics and apathy, apathetics, is that they're probably telling the truth about what they're experiencing. They're not lying. And if we understand that they're telling the truth about what they're experiencing, maybe as leaders we should listen to that truth and see if we can do something about it.
Roberto Germán [00:12:47]:
Well, you, um, you know, you shared the example of the nurse who left education and went into nursing, but experiencing some of the same things in her new profession. I wonder if you have any other real world examples that illustrate the impact of commodification, whether on teachers and their well being or other professionals in their well being?
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:13:14]:
Oh, sure. I spent some time with an art teacher in a local school system, and this art teacher was leading. This is high school now, and these kids are really great artists when they apply themselves. It's fascinating to see the work that they do. She gave me several opportunities to come through and watch these people doing the work they're doing. I have a lot of respect for this part of the teaching profession. And she pointed at a box on the wall over on one corner of the classroom, and it said corral on it. I said, what's that corral? She said, that's the phone corral.
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:14:06]:
I said, why do you have a phone corral? And she said, because if I don't take their phones when they walk in the room, I'm not going to have their attention. Now, think about how demoralizing that has to be. The teacher has to be a disciplinarian. The teacher literally has to take their technology away from them so that they can focus on their work. Now, she's not blaming the kids for that. She's saying the presence of technology is creating a real, real hard approach to keeping these folks concentrated on the art they're there to produce. So, I mean, that's an example of a boundary that comes out of the technology. I'm not saying any of this is deliberate on anybody's part.
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:14:59]:
It's just all part of what's happening in the structure of learning in our world today.
Roberto Germán [00:15:07]:
Absolutely. I can relate to that. When I was still in school serving as school principal, that's definitely something that I wrestled with and something my team and I would meet about and discuss and, you know, different folks, different perspectives. But I was always strong on the side of, yeah, I don't. I just don't really see the need for the most part, for students to have phones in the classroom. You know, my data suggested it was more of a distraction than it was.
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:15:38]:
Absolutely.
Roberto Germán [00:15:39]:
You know, in addition to their learning, obviously it can be right. If you're responsible, you utilize it the right way. It's, you know, and there were moments where we were doing certain projects, and it called for students to utilize their phones, and that was purposeful, based on certain tasks. But outside of that, by and large, it just. It created a lot more unnecessary work for everybody, and it also created some tensions and stress for the students.
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:16:15]:
Sure it did. The other part of that is, you know, technology is wired today, it is very wired, and you and I are using technology right now to have this conversation, and there's a huge benefit to it, but it is also hugely distracting. We're watching these kids. It's tempting to say, well, these kids just don't care anymore. And that becomes part of the cynicism and that you might find in a school system. Frankly, these kids, their brains aren't fully developed yet. Their brains aren't going to be fully developed until they're 25 or 26 years old, maybe. And so as you, especially boys, especially to boys, you got it, you know, so you create a phone corral, put it on the wall next to the door, and then they slip in their own private other phones, in their book bags or in their purses or wherever it is, and they use it anyway.
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:17:15]:
And, you know, it's a game that starts to be played. And that just adds more to the cynicism. You know, we have reports now in the literature, in the news articles that teachers are being invited to carry weapons in the schools as a protection against some of all of the craziness that goes on in some of these areas. What does that do to the self image of the teacher? What does that do to the expectations we have of teachers as they come into the workplace? Is their job to be the disciplinarian, the safety officer? What is their job when it comes down to it? Or is it their job to foster learning?
Roberto Germán [00:18:06]:
Yeah, I mean, it's hectic. It's hectic. There are a lot of big issues that are still unaddressed in our country, including safety and weapons and the right to bear arms. And, you know, I mean, there's. There's so much right. And again, as a. The person that was dealing with these issues in school, like, I'm starting to get stressed just hearing myself mention these things, because it's hard as a school leader. You know, you want to do your best to serve and protect and create an environment where young people are thriving and they're learning, and they love learning and the adults love to be there.
Roberto Germán [00:18:57]:
Then you have all these factors that sometimes are way outside of your control. And so I'm wondering, because you emphasize the importance of leadership in your book, what are some key actions that school leaders can take to reduce the commodification of their teachers and support their professional well being?
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:19:22]:
That is actually the whole point. That is the whole point. Thank you. Every issue that a teacher faces in a classroom becomes a leadership issue. Once you move into leadership, whether you understand it or not, I mean, you have taken that step yourself in your career. Once you move into leadership, you are assuming responsibility for everything that happens in that environment. That's a big low. So it is a leadership issue.
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:19:53]:
When we start talking about modification and the burnout of teachers and all of the things that are occurring there, we have to start treating teachers as professionals. And it sounds a little bit cheesy when I say this, but it starts with respect. The teachers deserve the respect we would attribute to any professional we idealize. And professionals need that respect in order to operate professionally and freely in their discipline. Professions are disciplines. They're licensed in many instances, and because of that idea of professional discipline, it becomes a practice. Now, what does the word practice mean? Practice means we do it over and over again until we get it right or we can't get it wrong. Teachers are going to make mistakes.
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:20:49]:
They're going to learn from those mistakes. They're going to keep on honing their profession, and they need the respect of their administrators as they do these things. And they need a lot of autonomy in practicing that profession. There's an old quote from Steve Jobs Jobs that basically said, if you're going to surround yourself with highly professional people, why would you second guess them? Because they're the experts that you hired them for. Yeah, that's right. And yet in the administrative circles, it's very easy to second guess what the teachers are doing and try to bring controls and standardize what they're doing. That's not necessarily progress. I'm a lean, enterprise trained guy, and I believe that there's a role for standardization in a lot of professional work.
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:21:40]:
But within that you've got to allow a lot of autonomy so that professionals can practice their discipline. Teachers need the ability to address individual learning needs. Once you start standardizing curriculum, what happens is you move toward a mindset of one size fits all. Different people learn different ways. You're an educator. You know that. Some are kinesthetic. Some want to learn by touching, feel and seeing.
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:22:10]:
Others are concept people. They really want to learn by understanding the concepts behind the process. We have many different learning styles in this one size fits all isn't necessarily effective for all the students. When teachers come to their vocation, their profession, their passion, they want to see the eyes light up for all of their students, not just the few that the standardized work creates. Those enlightened eyes. They want to see all of the kids right now. And standardization doesn't give you a lot of room for that. I think leaders need to allow the professionals more latitude in how they do their jobs than what they're feeling today.
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:22:59]:
Based on what I'm hearing from them and reading about, they need a lot of latitude. I had the experience of watching my son go through his high school curriculum. He graduated about six years ago. I had this young man at a much later age in my life and after I was trained in brain damaged with all of my education. But it was a fascinating process to see how he navigated the system with teachers who really had handcuffs on and how they could deal with him. They had a lot of handcuffs, and I'm kind of a break the rules guy, pushing a bit, as the parents may push. And it was hard for the teachers to deal with me.
Roberto Germán [00:23:50]:
I can imagine.
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:23:52]:
It's like, wait a minute. This boy has special needs. He learns differently. So I had that parent experience as well, and not only my professional background, but as a parent. And it raised another question for me, and I don't think the leadership in school systems answer this question very well. Who is the customer of the education process? Is it the student? Well, they're not paying the bills. Is it the parents? They're paying the bills, but they're not necessarily experts at what education is and how it should work. Is it the school board who's elected to guide and counsel the administration? Who is the customer of this public education process that we have? I don't think that's clear, and I think it's kind of.
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:24:51]:
It's a mobile process. It depends on who you're talking to. It moves around. I think that puts administrators in a very, very delicate position. Somebody who is a principal of a school or a member of a school board. It can be very conflicting. It can be very. Because it's not clear.
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:25:12]:
I think there needs to be more clarity brought to that.
Roberto Germán [00:25:15]:
Yeah, that's an interesting question and interesting situation that you frame because I see it as the issue being that there isn't one customer yet. You have to please all these folks who are invested in this. Now I see the student as the primary customer. If I had to pick one, it's, you know, it's going to be the student.
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:25:40]:
Right.
Roberto Germán [00:25:40]:
We should be centering our work on the students yet it should be done in conjunction with the families. Right. Where we should not be working in isolation. We should be working together. It should be a school family partnership.
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:26:02]:
Yep.
Roberto Germán [00:26:04]:
And I let the administration deal with the board. Right. But, you know, oftentimes what I find, too, is that boards will have input without having much experience in schools. They don't have experiences as teachers, don't have experience as school administrators yet. They have a lot of input and influence, and that could be extremely challenging. I'm not saying everybody, but in many cases, that's what I've seen, seen a lot of folks who have not been on the front lines, who have a lot of influence, a lot of power to make decisions that impact everybody.
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:26:47]:
I love the idea of a teacher parent partnership. I think that's marvelous. And it's a supreme ideal because between those two, they spend the most time with the kids, ideally, but there are also a lot of problems. And you know, those problems from your.
Roberto Germán [00:27:08]:
I know them too well. You know, I say this, but trust me, I, you know, I have parents. If you mention their names, you know, I'll probably start to start the twitch a little bit.
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:27:19]:
You know, I was probably one of.
Roberto Germán [00:27:22]:
Troubles they gave me.
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:27:25]:
Yeah, I get it. So.
Roberto Germán [00:27:28]:
But it's all a process, and certainly we want to be able to have a positive impact on student learning. I think it takes a lot of work, a lot of reform, maybe certain things need to be blown up, and we need to start from scratch. Right. We have an antiquated system, but I think there's also plenty of examples in all types of spaces in which folks are doing good work, and we could learn from that, and we could utilize all the resources available to us to think through how it is that we create professional workspaces where folks don't feel burnt out, where folks feel like they have autonomy while there's still a sense of accountability. Right. I love the idea of autonomy, but as somebody who's also served as a principal, I definitely have been in some situations where I've inherited staff, faculty and staff that didn't have much accountability, and that created some rub. That created some rub. Here I come with all my accountability.
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:28:42]:
Yeah, no, I get it. I've spent most of my career with executives and managers in different industries, and accountability matters. Those are management issues. Those aren't learning issues. And you're right, it's difficult. I've had managers come to me and say, I need a policy on customer service because my people don't understand customer service. Nonsense. You don't need a policy to say, be nice to customers.
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:29:10]:
That's a management challenge, and you need to manage your staff. I make a distinction between management and the practice of the professions in the business. Management's a profession, too. And in my book, I talk about what's happening in that circle as well. There's a lot of commodification going on there as well. It's very fascinating. You know, you asked me what leaders really need to do, and I started, with respect. I'll add a couple of more ideas to this.
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:29:45]:
Leaders need to find a way to be present where the work is being done. They don't belong in their offices. If a leader is spending any more than one day a week in their office, they're spending way too much time in their office. They need to be in the classrooms, monitoring, observing, helping, listening, coaching. Coaching and making the teachers successful beyond their wildest dreams. That's the job of a leader. And by the way, I extend that to the, to the school boards. I've asked multiple teachers if they've ever met any of the school board members, and I'm getting a lot of notes.
Roberto Germán [00:30:26]:
Yeah, yeah. That's going to be consistent. That data is going to be consistent.
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:30:31]:
Why? If I were on a school board.
Roberto Germán [00:30:33]:
That'S a great question. I don't, I don't know.
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:30:35]:
If I were on a school board, I'd want to be in the middle of that and just learn what's going on just, just to understand it.
Roberto Germán [00:30:44]:
Sure. It's easier to, to not be in the thick of it. You know, that's kind of my shortcut. And maybe I'm not being fair to the school board members, but, but that's the question they should be contending with. Absolutely. Like, why aren't y'all present? Why aren't you there? Why don't the teachers know you? Why don't you know other folks who are on the ground with the kids? Right. Those on the front lines, why don't they see you? Why don't they know you? Why don't, why isn't, why aren't relationships being cultivated? The school board and, you know, the educators who are on the ground getting to work done with the kids, the.
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:31:24]:
People doing the daily work in manufacturing, it's called going to gamba. It's going to where the work is being done. And if leaders don't spend time there, they're not learning about the work. They're not learning about what's happening. I list in my book five promises that I think every leader needs to make to their people. I'll tell you what, those are the, these are big promises. Talk to me and I'll listen to you. Promise number one.
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:31:54]:
Promise number two, I want your advice, and I will take it, and I'll take it seriously. That doesn't mean I agree with you, but I will take your advice and take it seriously. I will help you grow as a professional to be wildly successful in your work. That is my job. I want you to be successful. Promise number four, I'll make sure that you are compensated competitively. Professionals deserve to be compensated professionally. And sometimes we don't do that.
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:32:28]:
Sometimes cost cutting, and a whole lot of things get in the way, and we try to cheap out.
Roberto Germán [00:32:34]:
Oh, don't I know that all too well.
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:32:37]:
You do not want. You will lose your best if you do not compensate professionally. Promise number five. I will have your back when things go south. Everybody needs somebody behind them. Everybody needs a patron. Everybody needs a sponsor and know that they can operate safely and that if they do screw up, somebody's got their back and can help them out with that. Those.
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:33:10]:
I think every leader needs to make these promises so that people feel safe in their role.
Roberto Germán [00:33:15]:
I like that. I like that, folks. And just a reminder, that's. That's from the forthcoming title, lead with purpose, reignite passion and engagement for professionals in crisis. As we march towards the end of our interview, I have a couple questions for you. One is, this is always a fun question for me. If you had an opportunity to have lunch with anybody, dead or alive, who would it be and why?
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:33:40]:
That is such an easy question. I don't know if you've ever heard of this guy's name. Wayne Dyer is somebody who. I have read everything he's written. I have watched every tape he made. I have. Wayne Dyer passed away a couple of years ago. He was one of the most outstanding speakers ever produced in God's green earth.
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:34:08]:
He was able to motivate. He took his career from psychology into the spirit world, and he is just a marvelous, marvelous thinker. If you have an opportunity to check out any of his books at the local bookstores, I think you'll find reading what he's written to be very inspiring. I would. Unfortunately, he's no longer with us, but I still speak to the guy in my own way.
Roberto Germán [00:34:38]:
And how do you spell Wayne's last name?
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:34:41]:
D y e r.
Roberto Germán [00:34:42]:
D y e r. I'll have to check him out. I have to check him out. And what's the message of encouragement that you want to offer those that are listening?
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:34:53]:
This is easy. I'm assuming the people listening to this are administrators. They're managers. They're people who are leading in the education industry. Two step dance. Step one, go and see. Be present. Be there.
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:35:12]:
Understand what's going on. And then once you do that, step number two is go and do. Go do something to show respect. Go do something to make somebody successful. Go do something to. To cause people to know that you understand their reality and what they're doing. Go and see. Go and do.
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:35:35]:
Every chapter of my book ends with that challenge.
Roberto Germán [00:35:40]:
Well, where can we access your book? I know it's not out yet. It's on the horizon. But where can we access your book? And for folks that want to learn more about your work, where can they follow you?
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:35:50]:
First of all, my website, www.rogergerard.com, and the book will be available on Amazon within a couple of weeks. It will be available almost immediately through Friesen Publishing, f r I e s e n publishing. And you can get it by going there or on Amazon in a couple of weeks.
Roberto Germán [00:36:15]:
Well, Dr. Gerard, appreciate your time, appreciate your insight. Hopeful that this will be helpful to our listeners and that they can apply one or two things from what you shared to their own respective journeys. But definitely, we have to keep the conversation alive. We have to think about how we can shift things, right? So that we're not continuing to create spaces that feel, that make people feel like commodities, but also shift things for ourselves. If we feel like we're operating in spaces where we feel like commodities, then, you know, it might inspire us to think about what we need to do differently. Whether it's, you know, speaking to our supervisors and sharing what the environment feels like, offering that feedback. Or it might be a greater shift, right? It might be. I think it's time for me to venture out and do something different in a different space.
Roberto Germán [00:37:14]:
Whether I create that on my own or I go do it in a space that has a culture that doesn't treat people like commodities.
Dr. Roger A. Gerard [00:37:21]:
We all have those choices. Roberto, thank you for allowing me this time with you. I appreciate it. I enjoyed it.
Roberto Germán [00:37:29]:
Thank you, sir. Wishing you success with your upcoming title. As always, your engagement in Our Classroom is greatly appreciated. Be sure to subscribe, rate the show, and write a review. Finally, for resources to help you understand the intersection of race bias, education, and society, go to multiculturalclassroom.com. peace and love from your host, Roberto Germán.
