Roberto German 00:01
I'm here with my brother, Sheldon. Yes. Yes, y'all. I'm excited because, you know, I've been thinking about getting him on for a while. And I had told him this, but then I ran into him in Anaheim, at NCTE, and he put the pressure on. He was like, "Hey man, you said you gonna get me on and you haven't." Like, yo, I wasn't lying, bro. I told you I was gonna do this is it's just, you know, the way my bank account's set up. Now--
Sheldon L. Eakins 00:28
More checking at my savings. Huh?
Roberto German 00:31
Now my people, this is a treat. This is a pleasure to be able to connect with Doctor Sheldon Eakins. ,you know, one of the reasons it's a pleasure for me is because he's a-- he is an individual. I've only been doing this for a year and a half, and-- and he's an individual that when I started someone Monica on, I believe it was Monica, who recommended I reach out to Sheldon. And she was like, "Hey, he's doing great work with his podcast. I-I think, you know, you should connect with him. He'd give you some insight." And he did. I-- you know, I hit him up and he was very generous with his time, very generous with giving me some direction. Hey, these are some of the resources I use. And you think everybody gets down like that, but I'm gonna be straight with y'all, that's not always the case. Not everybody's willing to-- to share their-- the-- the-- the resources that they're using, the insights. Sometimes folks view each other as competitors, and it's unfortunate it shouldn't be like that. We should view each other a-as collaborators, as fellow disruptors.
Sheldon L. Eakins 01:38
Yes.
Roberto German 01:38
Right. As-- as the t-shirt Sheldon's rocking states and-- and as he's been talking about, right? If you have dug into his book Leading Equity, then you know that he talks about this notion of being a disruptor. Don't-- don't just settle for being an ally. And he also gets into other terms that he use, such as co-conspirators on and so forth, and why he uses the term disruptor. I'm not gonna reveal all of that. 'Cause if you don't have the book, you have to go cop that. All right folks, we can't give you all the gems. We're not doing all the work for you. You gotta do some of the work. Go get the book now. Leading Equity by the Good Doctor Sheldon L. Eakins. We gonna-- first of all, thank you. Thank you for-- for taking time to connect with me here. I wanna start with your middle name. You-- the-- the L man. I, you know, I've been thinking about this for a while. What does the L stand for? Because in-- in none of your publications do I see that the L is revealed? And I haven't heard you talk about it on the podcast, so I need to know. And I think the people wanna know what the L stands for, Sheldon.
Sheldon L. Eakins 02:50
Roberto, it's has-- first of all, thank you for having me on the show. I love the energy. Like, I gotta take you wherever I go. Like when I do keynotes, like you gotta be my like, hype folk, you know, just coming--
Roberto German 03:01
Let's do it.
Sheldon L. Eakins 03:02
Just get me-- bring-- coming to the stage. Like, I want-- I want you from now on. We'll-- we'll talk offline about what that could look like. For the L though. So Sheldon L Eakins. Lewis is my middle name. And my dad's name is Lewis Eakins. So he's actually Dr. Eakins as well. And I really respect my father. Like I have a lot of respect for him. So I actually wanted-- wish I had been a junior, so I just have his first name as my middle name. So I have a son and he Sheldon Jr. So he's Sheldon Lewis Eakins Jr as well. He Sheldon Lewis Eakins as well. And-- and the reason why I did that was because, again, just have a-- just thinking about the relationship that I've had with my father. I mean, he's very close. I mean, he-- I mean, I'm an entrepreneur 'cause I grew up in a household with-- with an entrepreneur. He was an entrepreneur. And so, like, I never thought I would end up being one. I started teaching, that's why I went teaching. 'Cause I was like, it's a safe. And then the next thing I know, I'm opening up a business and then I'm reaching out to him, what's an LLC? What's the sole proprietor? What-- what should I do? And-- and he's always been there for me. And so I wanna be the same way for my own son. So that way he grows up, he's proud of his name, he's proud of his father just like I am proud of my father as well. Now people ask me, well, why do I put the L. You know, why don't I just say Sheldon Eakins. I-I watched a podcast, I listened to a podcast years ago. And they said basically that people associate more intelligence when they see your middle-- middle initial. There's something subconsciously when you say, rather than me saying Sheldon Eakins, when you put this Sheldon L. Eakins it just-- it just means-- in a lot of people's mind there's-- there's more intelligence and credibility that comes with that-- that middle initials for some reason. I-I do some research or whatever, but listen to that podcast. And now's like, okay, that's what we're doing. We're gonna put that L in there and every time we're gonna always have a middle initial for everything I do. So that's-- that's the story behind all that.
Roberto German 05:01
That's great. No, that's great, man. You're-- I don't know if you're inspiring me or if I gotta go and read the research. You see, I don't have a middle name. So now you gonna make me go and create a middle name just so-- just so I could put a-a random letter in there and people can see me as more intelligent.
Sheldon L. Eakins 05:18
Yeah, yeah. Again, it's-- it's research-- research based. I-I can't tell you who-- who did the research, but that's-- that's definitely something I-I found out.
Roberto German 05:26
Well, thanks for sharing that story. I-I love that we're starting with this black joy, with this black fatherhood, black strong family example. And listen to you, man, it's-- it's really pulling on my heartstrings 'cause I had a lot of-- I have a lot of respect for my father. My father passed away in February. So, you know, just-- just thinking about what you described, right? I have a son, my four year old, and there's-- there's things that are present for me in terms of the legacy I want to create for him. And-- and also the legacy I want to extend in terms of like what my father did and has meant for my life. So thank you for sharing that. Thank you for sharing that. And every-- I-I think it's so important for us to-- to share these types of examples because every time we share such examples, we're acting as disruptors, right? We-- we-- we are disrupting that narrative that the media, mainstream media has-- has pushed the-- about black families and-- and-- and black males and black fathers. And if we're getting more specific, right? And the absence of. Nah, no, we're very present, right? We're-- we're very present. And so wanna continue to highlight such examples of the presence of black fathers, the impact of black fathers and the legacy of black fathers. So thank you for sharing that.
Sheldon L. Eakins 06:56
Listen, I appreciate you providing, you know, sharing your platform with me just so I can share that story. I've never shared the story publicly. Like this is, you know, my dad knows, you know, I've-- I've had these conversations, like, man, I wish I could have been a junior. Like, I really do respect, you know, you know, your guidance and just who you are as an-- as a man. Like, you definitely reared me in a way that I wanted to do the same things that I've learned from my, you know, from my father and-- and be able to do the same things for my kids. And so, yeah. So I appreciate the opportunity to be able to say these words.
Roberto German 07:26
That's love. So you start your book Leading Equity by mentioning that you have made mistakes in the past. Then you share an experience that occurred while you were student teacher
Sheldon L. Eakins 07:40
Mm-hmm.
Roberto German 07:40
Now we won't necessarily get into that, but outside of that experience, w-what is one mistake you've made in your professional education career that you regret? And-- and I ask this because I know you value modeling, vulnerability and humility as that's the focus of chapter eight in your book.
Sheldon L. Eakins 08:00
Listen, first of all, painful thing. Cause I'm the equity guy, I'm supposed to be perfect. I'm not on point. I mess up all the time. And my-- my children call me out all the time. Like, "Daddy, daddy, you're being biased." And I'll be like, "Yo, I'm off right now. I'm not on, you know, I clocked out earlier today." You know, like, I mess up all the time. Like, I definitely make a lot of mistakes. I'll share a quick story. Speaking of bias, I guess. And I used to be a school principal and as a school principal, I-I used to, like, helping out in the lunchroom, lunch line. And-- and so one day I was-- I was serving, I was serving beans. It was Mexican day, Mexican food day. And so had a Mexican kid come into the line, I looked at him and I said-- dead in his eyes I said, "Are you ready for these beans?" And he said, "No, I don't want-- I don't want any beans." And I looked at him with like a sense of surprise. I just could not believe this young Mexican kid did not want some beans. And on Mexican food day. And I was like, "You sure you don't want these beans?" And you know what he said? He said, "Mr. Eakins, that's a stereotype. We don't all eat beans." And I said, "You know what? My bad, you're right. I messed up. I totally stereotyped you. Totally stereotyped you. I'm wrong." And he-- and he laughed and he was like, "It's all good." And he-- he explained. He said, "You know-- you know, at home, yeah, definitely. There's-- there's Mexican food. You know, we-- we typically have beans at home. However, I just never have liked beans. I've never liked it and it's just not something I eat." And I-I tell that story sometimes because it-- it helps me show a little bit of humility. 'Cause I do some-- some-- like when I do trainings and, you know, own implicit bias, for example, micro aggressions, those kind of things. And I don't wanna appear as if I am the expert. I don't like being called an expert. I like to-- I-I just try to stay a chapter ahead. You know, I-I have experiences and there's some things that I'll never experience and I can try to be empathetic as much as I can, but I can't relate for every type of situation. But I like to share with my audience and the folks that I'm working with that look, I messed up too. Shoot, I just messed up last week. So I'm-- I'm standing here before you just letting you know, look, I'm working on this as well. There's absolutely no way that we can end, you know, that we-- we can't end bias or for example, like, we're human beings. You know, we're gonna have our own biases.
And that's-- that's to me is a message that I think is very important. So I do think it's really important that you start off with your own vulnerability to-- to help lighten the-- the, you know, the-- lot of that work anti-racist work, anti-bias work. It's-- it can be intense. And I think when you wanna really create a brave space, you could either be the first one to be brave. Not out, you know, not your-- just your-- your content stuff. Yeah. You know, your stuff. But really taking the time to be brave. You know, you asked me how I was, like, how I was doing before we even hit record. And I told you, I was like, honestly, today is a good day. But if you had asked me this a couple months ago, I would've had a different-- different answer. Like, I've been trying to really work on, 'cause, you know, generally, you know, small talk, "Hey, how you doing?" "I'm good." "How you doing?" "I'm good." You know, normally that's how I do. However, like, I have really been working on, "Look, you know what? I'm-- I'm-- I'm kinda down right now. I've had to reschedule some interviews, like, I've logged on and I'll-- and they could see it on my face and I'm like, "Do you mind? Can we-- can we touch base next week? I'm just having a really rough day." And-- and I-- and I-- and people understand that. I mean, especially with everything we got going on, like mental health is starting to be more discussed these days, but it-- it wasn't, I would say, especially in our black communities, it's not always something that was-- that was encouraged. And so now we're seeing a lot more of those conversations happening. So yeah, I-I really do just try to just be more open and honest with how I'm feeling with what I got going on in life.
Roberto German 11:49
Yeah. I could appreciate that. I could appreciate that for sure. And I know that's where we're often, or we have been, especially black men have been taught to just hold things, right? Like, "Hey man, just, you gotta put on your game face and-- and keep it pushing." And in the past couple years I've come to understand how much holding all these things in, especially like these emotional matters, how much it impacts you physically spiritually, so on and so forth. But I'm thinking about like, literally my-- the physical impact, like my stomach, stomach issues, I've-- I've had because I've been holding so much and-- and it's been hard for me to release. And that's something I'm learning and working through. So I-I appreciate you sharing that. Sharing the importance of like, "Hey, I'm-- I'm calling into what it is in this moment. This is how I feel, this is how it's impacting me. I need to reset. Let's-- let's not be afraid of reset. So let-- let-- let's-- let's continue here talking about vulnerability and humility. You know, I-I-I really wanna stay in this place because I don't think it's a conversation that we have enough. It's-- it's-- it's happening. But I-I-I love to see people to continue to unpack this notion of modeling vulnerability and humility. And so why-- why don't you just share why you deemed this important? I mean, you dedicated a whole chapter to it in your book.
Sheldon L. Eakins 13:27
Yeah. Yeah. Well, that-- that chapter was very-- I mean, the book itself was personal. But that chapter was really personal for me because, you know, in-- in the midst of writing this book, I was going through a divorce and-- and it wasn't-- it wasn't an easy divorce, I'll put it that way. There's a lot happened in there. And-- but still, I was going to school every day and show up, you know, and the students would ask me questions like, "Are you okay?" Like, are, you know, the whole conversations. And I'd be like, "Nah, man, I got court today." Or I got this today. I got, you know, this issue is happening. Or I-I gotta meet with my attorney, or I just got this text message." It-- it was always something going on. And so, while I am a human-- again as a human being, I-I have a job. I gotta pay my bills. I gotta support my kids and everything. Yet I have stuff in the background that's distracting, but I need to be fully present. I think we often ask our students to be vulnerable and open, you know, journal prompt. You know, sh-- you know, what is your deepest, darkest, whatever. And-- and we ask our students all the time to share and express who they are. And-- and we wanna get to know our students and-- and, which I think is very important, don't get me wrong. However, at the same time, I think that we need to be doing the same. Like we need to be sharing our, a little bit about ourselves. Now, it doesn't mean that we gotta like, tell 'em every ins and out that we have, you know, "Hey, I-I'm, I'm behind on my child support or I'm behind on-- on my bills and I-I don't know if I'm gonna have a roof over my head." I don't know if we necessarily need to go into details with things, but I feel like if we're asking our students to share and we wanna connect and we really wanna build that rapport, then we need to be able to reciprocate that as well.
So yeah, I used to have conversations with my students cause I had-- I was the director of special ed at the school and I had some kids that, you know, had some you know, 504 plans. They just call it 504 plans and for anxiety or some-- some emotional distress, those kind of things. And they would come to me and share with me how-- how their day was. They would check in with me throughout the day just-- 'cause I always wanna make sure that they're good. And then they would ask-- they started asking me questions. They started, you know, "Hey, look, can-- you know, you always hearing about what I got going on? You know, kept telling me about what you got going on." And so I would feel comfortable with sharing. And we got really close. You know, when I left the school, I mean, we're still, you know, a lot of those students we're-- we're still Facebook friends. And I still try to check in on the kids to see how they're doing because, you know, that's-- that, you know, maintaining that relationship is very important to me. I think even as school leaders, you know, sometimes we feel like we're supposed to know all the answers and-- and-- and we're supposed to, you know, be discerning right then and there. I've really been working on situations like, you know, I don't have an answer right now, however, however, can-- can we touch base tomorrow? Or-- or can you gimme a couple hours and we touch base. Or, you know, just letting folks know, listen, I don't know everything, but I-I-I'm not gonna ignore this issue. I'm not, I-I do wanna address it. I just need a little bit of time to think and figure this out. Can we touch base later? And again, I think those little things just kind of again, humanizes us and-- and-- and-- and puts the focus back on yes, we're not perfect. We don't know everything. However, we're doing our best.
Roberto German 16:52
Yeah. That's-- that's great, man. That's great. It's important. And I-I can relate to you in so many ways that we have so much synergy. I used to be a former principal.
Sheldon L. Eakins 17:03
Mm-hmm.
Roberto German 17:03
And I also was-- was a school leader in various roles, but I-- there was a time I had a life before Lorena and I went through a divorce also, and I was showing up, putting on my game face day in and day out. Like, nobody really knowing what was going on in my life, you know. Dealing with depression and all types of things. Right? You know, holding it together in the professional sense. But on the personal side, man, my life was a mess. It was falling apart. And, you know, eventually got to a place where, you know, I-I-I had to, things were just so messy that, you know, I-I-I needed to talk to individual who was my supervisor. But we also on the-- the same leadership team, 'cause this is-- I was in a-- in different role at that time. I wasn't principal. But we, you know, and we became really good friends. We're still good friends to this day, but he-- he became the person I had to-- I turned to during that time so he could understand like, yo, if I'm not killing it in the professional space right now under-- this is why. I want you to understand some of the things that I got going on that I've been holding. Right? That now it's impacting me so deeply. I can't-- I can't even hold it anymore. So thank you for sharing that and-- and just hearing you sharing me, like, I don't really talk about this like that, to be honest with you. This is probably the first time I've ever, you know, talked about, you know, my own divorce on this platform. I-I really don't talk about it unless people like, you know, it somehow ask me, brings it up. I kind of leave the past in the past. But, you know, I do think there's something to create in these moments in which you're okay with, you know, being vulnerable and modeling that. So thank you for, you know, inspiring that in me.
Sheldon L. Eakins 19:05
Well, that again, that was-- that-- I was doing that like, right. I was going through a divorce, trying to work, trying to figure out-- and I'm writing in a book at the same time. So and-- like, all of that stuff's happening all at once. So it's-- and-- and my publisher was on me on about some deadlines. So I-I gotta make sure I get the manuscript-- manuscript in on time. So that-- again, that-- that chapter's, you know, I have a lot of, you know, I-- that one is one of my favorite chapters in the book just because it-- it-- again is really personal. That-- that chapter's really personal for me.
Roberto German 19:39
Yeah, man. I wasn't ready. I heard you get into it. I was like, "Oh, wait. Like, whoa. He's really unpacking some stuff here."
Sheldon L. Eakins 19:49
Yeah. Yeah. There-- there was-- there was a lot happening that year. There was a lot happening.
Roberto German 19:54
So yeah, one person who-- who was-- I had a number of people who were there for me, who supported me in-- in-- in many different ways and in-- in the work that I was doing. And I'm curious. Who are the people in your life, right? I'm-- I'm gonna go ahead and flip a question that you asked in-- in your book. Who are the people in your life that serve as accountability partners in your pursuit of leading equity and becoming an advocate for all students? And what's filling your cup in this season?
Sheldon L. Eakins 20:25
You know, dad is-- my dad is definitely my number one person. I-I mean, it don't matter what time of day. I mean, he's two hours ahead of me. He's on east coast time, I'm on mountain time sometimes hitting him up at 2:00 his time, midnight mine. And he's-- he's answering. He's-- he's-- so he's definitely the-- the-- the number one person. And then besides that, you know, I've-- I'm typically a-- so people don't believe this when I tell 'em I'm a very introverted person. Like, I'm very private. I'm very, like, I don't-- I don't just be talking to folks. Like, you know, I-I keep my stuff in. And so I had fallen out, not fallen out, just kinda lost touch. No, I wouldn't say fallen out. We had no beef or nothing. It just, my best friend, childhood best friend, we hadn't-- we hadn't touched base in a while. And he had reached out to me 'cause he's an assistant principal. And so he was asking for some help on a PD that he had to give. And so he reached out and we hadn't talked in a couple years or so, but he knows what I do. And so he was like, "Hey man, can you gimme some tips?" So I broke it down, gave him some-- some pointers on how to do his next PD. And then he asked me, "Well, how much do I owe you?" And I'm like, "Bro, like, you're my childhood best friend. You're my guy. Like, this is on the house, if you will. Like, what are you doing? Like, what you talking about and charge? I'm not gonna charge you. Whatever, man." And I was like, "You know what I would like? If you want to give me something," I was like, "You know what, we've lost touch, man. I want my best friend back." Like, I got the-- and then this was-- this was during the time when I was dealing with the divorce stuff. Separated-- I think we just separated at the time and there was some-- I can't talk about it. I'm not gonna talk about it, but there was some stuff that went down. And so I was like, "Dude, I-I really would love to talk to you. I wanna repair our-- rebuild or reconnect." And so yeah, he was like, yeah, he's down. And so he started checking in on me and then we just start-- I went down there to visit him in Dallas and-- and you know, we just reconnected. And so still like, we still keep up and reach out to each other, check on each other, see how folks are doing, you know. So him, my dad, and maybe just a couple other folks that I-- again, I keep a really small tight circle and I might share some things, but if you want to like really know what I have going on, that's just a-a-a handful of people that I would share any of those kind of details with.
Roberto German 22:48
Hmm. That's great. That's great, man. I'm-- I'm glad to hear that y'all were able to reconnect. It's, you know, when-- when-- when you have, in this case, an individual that you've spent a lot of time with that, you know, on a deeply personal level and they know you, it's you know, when there's that distancing, you know, you could feel that void. You could feel that void. And-- and-- and so it's-- it's awesome when-- when you hear stories of folks actually reconnecting, 'cause it doesn't happen in every case for whatever reason, right? Life happens. So what's-- what's filling your cup in this season?
Sheldon L. Eakins 23:33
Filling my cup. You know-- you know, I guess for me, so I-I love being on stage. I-I love keying noting and that's kinda like, I think that's kinda like my favorite thing nowadays. But I-- and I guess the reason why I'm just kinda like discovering this is because of Covid everything was virtual. And I was just literally talking into the camera all the time. And so now I've been able to be on stage and feel the energy and, you know, see people's faces. You know, 'cause sometimes on Zoom all you seeing is names. And so like, I'm-- I'm getting an opportunity. So like, right now, that is probably some of the most exciting things that I've been able to do. Is like-- like you and I met a few weeks ago, you know, as a result of being at the same conference together. So just being able to be on stage is-- is-- and things opening back up as far as these conferences, it is really, I guess, filling my cup for this year.
Roberto German 24:29
Great. Now, if you had an opportunity to have lunch with any author, dead, alive, dead or alive, who would it be and why?
Sheldon L. Eakins 24:38
Author?
Roberto German 24:39
Yes.
Sheldon L. Eakins 24:40
The author. Okay. Well, my favorite author right now is Michael Eric Dyson. So, he's alive. And so any-- any-- any-- I know the brother just. I mean, I just-- just every time I read his books, I-I just like, dude, this man has spent so much game. I would love to meet him and just-- I mean, he just so articulate with his like, delivery. You know, he's one of the people I kinda model my-- some of my speeches off of just kind of his-- the way he delivers. So he would definitely be someone that I would love to meet in person if I ever get a chance.
Roberto German 25:17
Oh man. Yeah, I met him years ago. If I remember correctly, this was the Association of Independence Schools of New England conference, and he was the keynote, signed the book for me. I didn't have an opportunity to have lunch with him. But I get the-- I got to chop it up real quick and get my book signed. Michael Eric Dyson is phenomenal. Oh, man. Amazing. Amazing writer, amazing speaker, amazing a-academic. Just wow. So much to offer there. That's a good one. I've been getting a lot of, lately, been getting a lot of James Baldwin. So this-- this was a good mix up. Audrey Lorde is-- is the one who's coming up also lately. But I think you're the first person to mention Michael Eric Dyson. Yeah.
Sheldon L. Eakins 26:04
Yeah. That's-- I-I got all his books. Like I-I-I got audibles and I got like the physical books. Like I mess with him. Like, that's my guy.
Roberto German 26:12
That's great. That's great. So to those that are listening, what-- what is a message of encouragement that you wanna offer them?
Sheldon L. Eakins 26:24
You know, I don't wanna be one of those people that says, if-- if-- if-- if, you know. I-I try to be careful with these type of messages, right? Because you don't know anybody. You don't know someone's situation, right? And-- and so I-I-I tread lightly when it comes to this because I know how I dealt with a situation may not be the same way someone would-- someone else, or someone's dealing with something worse, right? But what I would say, and as a general, you know, find some people, whether you're a person that's typically, you know, again, very private, but I have found a lot of resources and support from just reaching out to my family. You know, my brother's-- my brother lives in town here with me. He's definitely been looking out for me. My sister, she's-- she's in Georgia, however, sh-- I could hit her up. So just surround yourself if you can, by folks that are really gonna stay positive-- keep you positive a-and lift you up. And then I got into self-help books as well. I used to be one of those individuals who was like highly against it. "Oh, you don't need self-help." But I-I changed my mind. I-I-I have read some books that have really changed my life. So find yourself, surround yourself by some-- some folks that are key positive for you. Get into some self-help books. And I would also encourage folks to seek counseling if-- if that's-- if that's an option for you. That has helped me as well. I've gone through some counseling and was very helpful. Again, doing some very low times. At the end of the day, we wanna try to be proactive as opposed to reactive. You know, we wanna be doing different things throughout the day and--and maintaining our-- our mental health. We don't wanna wait till the time when-- when we're in our low points, and now we're trying to reach out and trying to get these resources and find these books and all that stuff. But if you practice these things daily, whether you're in a low or high state, I think that that would be helpful.
Roberto German 28:23
Thank you. Thank you, Sheldon. And thank you for unpacking with us a bit, this notion of modeling, vulnerability and humility. Where can folks follow you?
Sheldon L. Eakins 28:35
Well, you can find me on social, Sheldon Eakins, E-A-K-I-N-S. It is @SheldonEakins, so I'm on Twitter and I'm also on Instagram. You can always go to the website, leadingequitycenter.com. And if you're a podcast listener, my show is called Leading Equity.
Roberto German 28:52
Subscribe to Leading Equity today. The book, Leading Equity: Becoming an Ally, do yourselves a favor, purchase a copy. Sheldon's doing excellent work. If you're working in schools, feel free to reach out to him. You can book him for a 30 minute consultation. A lot of game to offer. If you're not familiar with his work, you are missing out. Brother Sheldon is just doing some amazing stuff. A-a-again, he's been grinding for a minute here, and so I know I have been blessed by his work. I'm-- I'm subscribed to the newsletter, so I get all the updates. This guy's on overdrive, interviewing everybody and-- and really covering such a wide range of topics, being a man committed to his word as it relates to leading equity and becoming an ally. Sheldon, thank you for your time. Thank you for-- for your work. And I look forward to keeping the conversation alive. I think there's a lot more that you and I will talk about in the future both on the platform, but also offline.
Sheldon L. Eakins 30:00
Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me.
